Meet the Guest
Welcome to the web flowers podcast.
In a moment, I'll be talking to Jonathan Waterworth. He's a freelance designer and web builder specializing in helping trades and construction industry. He's from Australia and he creates custom websites, brand identities and SEO solutions.
But first a word of thanks.
Octopus do that's Octopus dot D O is a fast and clean site mapper tool. Create your website map, add notes, specify page content, and use color schemes to improve your site map design or content planning. That's octopus dot D O.
Right. Hey Jono welcome to Webflowers.
Jono: Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited for this
Jonathan: absolute [00:01:00] pleasure. What's your favorite flower?
Jono: I sent it to you. It's the banksia. So no, the the waratah, the waratah. Sorry. No, I was thinking about something else, but yeah, the waratah firstly, Australian natives before.
They're quite interesting.
Jonathan: I mean it just, I, you did send it to him and I have had a quick look at it and it is bizarre. I mean, I've never seen anything like it, we'll put a picture in the show notes, but yeah, it's, it's quite fabulous.
Jono: That's why I love it. It's so weird,
Jonathan: but it's, it's, it's a flower from a tree, which, which I think is interesting, but I always think of flowers as you know, little plants that you can put in a vase, you've gone for something this kind of big structural sturdy thing as a flower, which probably leads us nicely into I'm making this up nicely into into what you do for, with, with, Webflow. So tell us a little bit about a project that you've done [00:02:00] or, oh, you know, something a really nice project or something that you've, you've had.
Jono: Yeah. So recently, one of the ones I've done, I finished it. Gosh, maybe a month or two ago for being locked down in Australia. So the whole world kind of just time is a concept. It doesn't really mean anything anymore. But I just finished this one for a joinery client. So I do a lot of, most of my work is in the construction industry.
So I just helped them. They had a website which was. Through HubSpot, which I didn't even know how to website builder, but HubSpot has a website builder and they had this thing and they have all this products. They do timber doors and windows, and they have so many, like a huge catalog of products. And I'm the poor lady who was trying to, was in charge of making sure she could upload it.
It was like a 20 step process to just upload a photo. It was just like, She came in and like, cause she sent me an email and she's like, look, it's really confusing. And I was like, yeah, it may, maybe it's kind of confusing. But then when I saw it, I was like, [00:03:00] okay, we can make this so much easier. And I was just like, I have this program that I designed websites.
We've got web flow and like, it's going to make your life amazing. Just you wait. So I recently did it and I just, I finished it and she's so happy. She's like, it's so easy. And like this one, one of the things I just going to start raving about Webflow. That's why we here the custom solutions you can build with it, but also like make everything still look pixel perfect and not have to go off after install this plugin.
And it's going to look kind of good, but it's also going to look a bit rubbish, but I can't do anything about it, but being able to do custom solutions, but also make it so tough.
So this one she had, so they have products. So she wanted a CMS for products with different categories. And then also have big thing was for, they do all these beautiful, like big projects for a [00:04:00] lot of bars and pubs and stuff in Sydney. So she had all these images and all this information that she wanted this just simple fly and be able to upload easily.
And she was really happy with how it came out. Just being able to shaken, apply to everything. I did some tutorials for all, but just being able to take all the images of these new projects she has and then being able to fill out all the information and get it done so easy and put it out there.
Jonathan: She's doing this.
Jono: Yeah, it's all through the same mess. So she has access to the
Jonathan: designer. What's the part then?
Jono: So for that one, one of the things was connecting. So I light boxes in the CMS. I'm not sure if you've ever tried to use light boxes in the CMS.
Jonathan: I'm not, I'm not a big fan yes. So,
Jono: so look, I'm not either, but it's what, it's what the project I mean, I can
Jonathan: see if you've got a door or several versions of it.
I think for, for, for, for my perspective. Sliders and anything that's hiding [00:05:00] content is, is bad. And but from a, from if you're selling a product, I can see that you want six views of that product. So I can see it as a reason to do it. So I'm not completely against it. So using the light box. So connecting that with the.
Jono: Yeah. So that was a, that was a bit of a learning curve because also she just had a gallery like a gallery CMS, which is, I thought that would be so easy. I thought, oh, just a gallery, you know, just upload a photo. But then you're not able to connect the light boxes together, as easy as you thought within the CMX CMS.
So the whole no code thing is low code. I think.
Jono: Yeah, me neither. I understand it sometimes, but a lot of the time I'm like, ah, look, if it works, it works.
Jonathan: So how did, how did you get into all of this? How long have you been making, doing, you know, designing and building things?
Jono: Yeah, so I studied graphic design. And then I got came out of graphic design. Yeah. I came out
Jonathan: really. You just really nice. It's really well drawn and well-designed and stuff. So I get that.
Jono: Thank you.
Jonathan: after, after doing a degree.
Jono: So I came out at graphic design and then. As I was searching for jobs, one of my cousins came to me and for [00:07:00] his business, he was like, Hey, like we need a new website. Can you do something like, we'll pay you money? And I was like, yeah, dude websites. I've done that before.
And like I had to, I had to an extent, but it was a bit outside my comfort zone, how big it was actually. So then that, that kind of started the process. You know, like is WordPress the best solution is I use Dreamweaver when I was in school, back in the day. I dunno if that's. No, I am old enough actually.
And I used Adobe muse as well, which we gone toward and then it got discontinued for year. We got taught it. So that was a big waste of time. Anyways. It's not about tools. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the helpful thing. I could take all of those funded I, or foundational skills I've learned and apply them to other things.
So I stumbled across if you know, the YouTube channel, the future with Chris DOE, right? So that's a, he's a [00:08:00] big in the graphic design kind of world. He had Ron Seagal on from flux academy. Which is his business now. And Ron was going on a bit. I think that's how you say his name. I'm not sure if that's how he pronounces it.
So and he was going on about how he was it was a bit clickbait, but he was going on about how he was billing, you know, all this money and our cause he could, he could build so quickly with this program called web flow. And at first I thought, ah, this is kind of blamed. Like I'm not in. Oh like, look, everyone loves money, but the whole pitch about it was I can make so much money.
And I do, I didn't think about it at first, but then I actually came back to it and look, that was just the clickbait title. It was actually really good content. And then I watched him building web flow and. Hang on, like, this is, this is really good. And then that started the deep, the deep black rubber hole that keeps on going go of using web for,
Jonathan: I mean, what, what I found [00:09:00] and you've used WordPress in the past.
Jono: Yeah. So
Jonathan: what I found is that exactly is that, is that with WordPress, you you're constantly learning new plugins. Ah, and with Webflow, you're constantly learning new ways of doing things. And it's, it's kind of getting a bit plugin with things like client first and stuff, or not kind of first with, but with fin suites no code solutions to various things,
Whereas with, with WordPress plugins, you've got to fuck [00:10:00] about with them and hope they they're going to be kept up to date and all the rest of it, which I suppose with, with fin sweet. But, you know, I don't feels, it feels so different. Doesn't it? For me, the, the massive difference is the community. The community is just wild in, in.
They just want to help each other out. And I can't, I can't figure that out. You know, apart from Ron wanting all the money in the world everybody else,
everybody else is just so willing to share their time. And, and, you know, these are people who are potentially your competitors. There's no such thing as competition that flow, you know, big agencies. Working together and helping each other. And it's, it's just great. And I, and, and, and they're all helping the little one man bands like you and I, and it's, it's just great.
I just think it's amazing. So yeah, no, no, no, no. It's, it's it's [00:11:00] fun. So let's go back to the graphic design then. Cause one of the things I saw on your website was a carpenter that you did some design work for and oh my God. Pickup truck. Do you call it a Ute is just stunning. Okay. I'm going to make sure that in the show notes, because it's just amazing and him driving around in that thing.
It's just a simple graphic. This just enveloping the whole Ute. I can't say that pick up. And it's just done so well. It's amazing. I just love it. And he, and you know, and he just lets get in that car every day. Six times a day. I just feel that just, you know, he is the king,
Jono: so I have to be honest. So that one was a, that one's a mock-up.
So the real one looks a little bit different, so that one's a mock-ups so the real one looks a little bit different, but I know the one you're talking about and yeah, so that was the start of the.[00:12:00]
Jonathan: Which is nice.
Jono: I have to be honest with these things,
but yeah, that was the start of the construction because I, before I was really into websites, my whole thing was I wanted to do logo design all the time. Right. So that was like the whole, and I look, I still do do logo design. I do a lot of things, but that was kind of when I started working with construction businesses and I was like, oh, Like, this is a good little area for me to work.
And it's an interesting niche when I talk to people about,
Jonathan: well, we're going to take a break now. And when we come back, we're going to talk about exactly that, because that's how I found you through your, through your niche in the construction industry. Okay. So we'll take a little break and we'll be back after this
octopus, do that's octopus dot D O is a fast and clean site mapper tool. Create your website map, add notes, specify page content, and use color schemes to [00:13:00] improve your site map design or content planning. That's octopus dot D O
ah, welcome back to Webflowers. This week I'm talking to Jono Waterworth he's a freelance designer and a SEO specialist from Australia. So. just before the break we were what were we talking about? I've forgotten completely now
Jono: where we're talking about niching in the construction
Jonathan: That's right. That's exactly right now. And this is, this is how I got to know you. It's only about three weeks ago. I saw a tweet that you'd either responded to or something. I think maybe it was a client first thing. And, and I looked at your, your logo. And I just thought that that is the best logo I've ever seen.
Jono: Oh, that is so kind.
Jonathan: And I mean this in the nicest possible way, it's not beautiful. It's a slightly [00:14:00] strange color, but it does what it says on the tin. Okay. You've taken your initials. J W and you've turned them into. tubes or pipes or something. Constructiony and you've linked them together. And it's fabulous because it says, this is who I am.
I'm a straightforward you know, and there's no fancy gradients or anything like that. It's just, I'm a straightforward, here we go. I'll make you a sensible website. And you will get more clients. And I just think it's brilliant. And the whole of your website is exactly that it's just beautiful case studies.
Lovely. I love the fact that you put the sketches on when you've done logo, design and stuff. I mean, that backstory to me it's always something that I'm really excited. I'm the guy at the concert, who's standing next to the next to the console, watching the, watching the guys, doing the lighting and stuff.
So I'm always much more interested in the, in the, in the backstory and stuff than I'm in the final product But the [00:15:00] final product don't get me wrong. Beautiful stuff. So, so how did you, how did you get into your niche?
Jono: I just want to say it. That was such a lovely thing to say. That was so nice.
Jonathan: It's true. I'm not making this shit up for the podcast.
Jono: My head's going to get so big. So the construction industry let's get into that. Okay. So I joined, okay. This is, I'm going to say time as a concept as well, because I can't remember exactly when it was. And also I had my first child. So the world is a blur,
so I'm I'm 27. Okay. So my wife and I had our first kid anyway, side story, but so I joined a coaching, a small coaching group. I think it was last year, sometime. See, we've had two lockdowns in Australia, so I'm getting them confused now, but I think it was last year sometime with a guy called.
Jacob CAS [00:16:00] from just creative Hayes, another fellow, Australian designer. And I was just at a point in my career that I was like, I don't feel like I'm going anywhere. Like I have some clients, but I'm not really doing anything. I'm not really growing my business at all. And he really challenged me with like, who are you serving?
Like, what are you doing? And all that kind of more business stuff. And then I really started to have to think about. Well, who am I serving? Like, well, what am I doing work for? I might just working for everyone. So then he gave me some worksheets to work through. And another thing he sent me from a guy called Tom Ross, who was had a, it was like a Venn diagram kind of thing, working out a good niche.
So it's kinda I think the four boxes or something like people who have money for your services, people who need your service. People that you understand the language and you can chat to them and people, you actually know them. So going through that, I went through a few heap of things. So, you know, first, so it was [00:17:00] like, oh, tech companies, like they obviously have money and they're on the always somehow on the come up.
But I literally, I don't know any tech companies, like I have no idea. I don't know any, so I went to a lot and then. At the time I was doing that work that you were saying about with the youth before and I was doing construction jobs for just a mate of mine. And I was thinking, oh, tradies.
So, so we call them tradies in Australia. So that's tradesmen. So I was thinking tradies and I was like, oh, it's a bit weird though. And also, cause I came from graphic design. The trainees, aren't the most like, you know, visually pleasing kind of people or anything, maybe I'm going to be doing these boring websites.
But then I, I took it back to my coaching group and I was saying to him like, oh, tradies. And he was like, that's a great idea. Like, that's, that's such a good idea, like the whole construction thing. So that, that's how I got into it. And it was this funny thing. I did it. I was a bit nervous because when you niche, I felt [00:18:00] like we just, and I talked to a lot of people who feel like this when you niche, you're like, I'm closing off a lot of clients.
Like, no one's going to work from me, but it's not true. Yeah. I still, I still do work for other industries, but I'm starting to get a bit known in the construction industry and I can see how I can follow the steps a little bit, but I can see it. It's starting to build on top of each other. Good, good construction pun built, but starting to build and just things become clear or like the people I'm talking to.
And the kind of, when I'm going to meetings and I'm talking about web flow and websites, I understand what their problems are and I know how to make solutions for them.
Jonathan: It's really clear. It's really clear from your, from your website, that, that circle of the language that they speak. You've really encapsulated that [00:19:00] to use a word that they or tradie might not use encapsulated.
You've, you know, Use that language. And of course I, I sort of come from a content design background and one of the things that you need to be doing all the time is finding the language of your target audience and giving it back to them. And that's that you've, you've absolutely done. And, and, and it does take time to build, I mean, you know, you, you say you're beginning to see that and it's going to be a year to.
Yeah, and that's fine. And, and I guess some of those, some of those guys, girls will be, you know, okay, I've tried this, it's not worked, so I've got to go back and work for a company. And then he, he talks to somebody at the company and then suddenly you've got another one of those, you know, big, like your doors building, construction company, websites to do.
And you know, and it's, it's just. Sticking at it. Isn't it. It's just being there all the time. And as you say, if somebody, you know, from [00:20:00] a, a different arena that comes along and says, yeah, I've got a pet shop. Can you, can you do a website for me? Not a problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's great. Yeah.
Jono: That's, that's a good point. It's just taking out. I feel like in this era of like instant fame and have all these fake gurus online being like, you can make a million dollars from your bedroom when that doesn't happen and you doing it for a couple of months and you're like, I'm not really seeing anything.
You start to go, oh, like, am I, am I onto the wrong thing here? But it's, that's not true. Like you have to completely separate that. And
Jonathan: at the end of the day do you want to be a millionaire?.
Jono: Yeah, man.
Jonathan: I can see in the, in the, in, in your room there the, the listeners at home can't see this, but you know, you've got a fish tank with a turtle. You've got a classic guitar, classical guitar.
Jono: I got a guitar play that a little bit. Yeah.
Jonathan: You've got to a big map of the world and a, and a drawing of a, [00:21:00] of a polar bear that, you know, you're you, you, you look like a family man.
Even, even if I didn't know you have married and had a kid that I do now. And, and that, that success, that is, that is what success looks like. You know, being happy being who you are and the million, the million dollars is never going to make you happy. You're just gonna want 2 million, so yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So building, building. Client base and getting known for, for a particular thing that niching, I think though, I mean, did you, did you have a look at the at the freelances journey? The, the course from, from webflow
Jono: Yeah, I have, I have watched that actually. Cause
Jonathan: that's what that's all about.
It's just about niching down and saying, okay, this is something that I can do. Yeah. Yeah.
Jono: By the way, just another. That's a whole different thing, but also in Webflow is like those videos series are so good. Like they're so high budget as well. [00:22:00] And to put them out for free on YouTube.
Jonathan: I saw one the other day about boxes and there's Grimur over there with a circular saw talking about builders and an ice cube tray, and it's half a second, not even that the production quality, the production values of, of Webflow videos.
Outstanding and absurd, but we love
Jono: Yeah, definitely. That's such a good thing. Those tutorials. Yeah. I feel so frustrated with some time back in the day when I couldn't figure things out and then you'll watch the tutorial and he's just such a naturally funny guy, and then he's telling you about something and then he's making me laugh and then I've learned something and I don't feel frustrated anymore because he's just calm me down with.
Any sense of humor, which I love.
Jonathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Try that with Elementor on WordPress.
Jono: Oh gosh. I have and oh, it makes me very glad for webflow actually. So glad [00:23:00] for webflow.
no, absolutely. Absolutely. It's just, it's just all right. What can I say? What can I say? Yeah. What's your top tip then for Webflowers out there
Jono: my top tip, I would say don't, don't rush into it. So I have rushed into it before, and I saw a funny tweet by this was going around all on Twitter. The other week about that guy who said Figma is not real or whatever, just start building in, start building in web flow, straight away. Figma is a delusion or whatever.
Jonathan: I just need to. butt in here I tweeted. Yeah. Figma is a figment of your imagination and I got blocked, so yeah.
Jono: Oh gosh.
Jonathan: Yeah, it's still, it's still going. There's still people out there doing ketchup jokes, designing ketchup. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jono: [00:24:00] So that's, that's a good thing because I, I, there was a point for a website and I learned the hard way when I thought, oh, I'm, I'm so good at web flow.
Now I'm so fast. I don't have to worry about like skip the sketchings phase, skip the Figma, Adobe XD. I'll just go straight to web flow. And I did it and it went horribly like I, I went in there and I just started chucking, divs all over the place. And then I looked at itafter thinking clearly, and I was just like, this is a mess.
Like I have rushed to this. So my best tip is don't rush it. Like actually spend time doing that process. And then FinSweet with client first, having a style. That's that's something that I've tried to do for a long time coming from a graphic design and logo design. Yeah. I'm basing it off the style guide and having brand guidelines is something that I've kind of brought in.
And I say I've always done, but it's FinSweet. Client first one is really good and it gives you such a good foundation and such good building [00:25:00] blocks really to build in web flow with. And that makes it, it makes it so much faster,
Jonathan: Doing a build Just with it's a podcast template and we need one particular rich text element to be completely different to all the others.
And what we didn't do was go back to the style guide and build this thing out and check if we were doing it sort of on the live site. And if I would have done it on the, on the style guide, we would have seen on the whole page. It's not working. It doesn't look right. It doesn't blend the rest of what you're doing.
So sorts it out. And so we had to sort it out afterwards, but again, yeah, it's, it's all got to, it's all got to gel together otherwise, and it's so easy. I mean the power of workflow to make absolutely anything is also it's curse because you can make anything. And it doesn't have to look good together or it [00:26:00] could make it not look good together, which is impossible with Wix or Squarespace.
You can't make it not look good together. It's going to look. All right.
Jono: Also bonus tip one other bonus tip is so I've only been on Twitter for a few weeks now. So like the tweet that you responded to, that was one of my first. That's a lie. I've been on Twitter for a long time, but I've just been a lurker on Twitter.
I haven't actually posted on Twitter. So bonus tip is like Webflow and , no code stuff on Twitter is actually such a nice community. Like I've actually had, it's funny because it's social media and in Australia, we're not a big Twitter. Like no one really uses it here. So I never really wanted to use it.
And then I was watching a Finsweet live stream and they were like, trust me, get on. And I got on, I started tweeting and then you and other people, I started having these genuine conversations with about Webflow. And I was like, this is great. Like all these people are nice to me. So
Jonathan: yeah. I mean, it's not just on [00:27:00] Twitter.
It's also, there's a, there's a Facebook group whenever webflowers for just yet the forums. They're just lovely people. And occasionally you get somebody who comes in and starts. Ah, yeah, but Webflow, can't do this and Webflow can't do that. So you need to use WordPress or, you need to use Shopify and I'm like, yeah, we know that.
And yeah, we've got a bit of, a bit of a cult. We're not
Jono: a little bit,
Jonathan: but when, but flow is the right solution, my goodness, is it the right solution? You know, and that's, and that's, and, and everybody cares. And that comes straight out of, you know, from, from Vlad all the way down through the whole company.
You know it's, it's, it's the basis of where Webflow started. And yeah, it's, it's just lovely. It's just lovely to see. So, yeah. Jono, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. It's, it's this is episode one of web flowers and I've got [00:28:00] some more lined up and I will get them out on the web on there'll be on Spotify and across Google podcasts and apple, wherever you get your normal podcast from. But thank you so much for your time. It's been lovely talking to you and yeah. To make some more Webflow websites, and and get that niche.
Jono: Yes, thanks so much for having me on. I've had a great time.
Jonathan: It's been good.
Jono: I've really enjoyed it.
Jonathan: Right. Okay. Thanks very much. Indeed. see you soon,
Jono: opposite sides of the day. You're on tea I'm on beer now.