Doing it for the kids

Jonathan: Welcome to the Webflowers podcast.
This week, I'm talking with Glenn McWhinney and Max Haining who run No Code Kids. No
Code Kids empowers young people with digital skills of the future, with engaging live and on
demand content. But first, a word of thanks,
[00:00:33] Jonathan: Octopus do that's octopus dot D O is a fast and clean site mapping tool.
Create your website map, add notes, specify page content, and use color schemes to improve
your site map design or content planning. That's octopus dot D O.

[00:00:52] Jonathan: Glen. What's your favorite flower?
[00:00:54] Glenn: My favorite flower, Jonathan is a daffodil, which is fortunate because they're
all out at the moment because it's spring here in in the UK.
[00:01:01] Jonathan: Any particular reason?
[00:01:03] Glenn: I don't I've just always loved them. I think it's just because they explode at this
time of year. They're everywhere. I mean, literally everywhere and, and then they're gone, you
know? And so it feels like there's a little bit of kind of specialness to them. But they're also
everywhere at a certain time. So I don't, I don't, I don't really know, but that's, that's one reason,
I guess.
[00:01:20] Jonathan: That's great. And Max what's your favorite flower?
[00:01:23] Max: Yeah this, this isn't yeah. intentional, but yeah, it's the same one. Daffodil. I did,
[00:01:28] Glenn: that's what we want to get the max.
[00:01:32] Max: This really wasn't pre-rehearsed but it is daffodil. Yeah. I think it's because it's
this time of year, we're seeing them a lot,
so It's in my So normally I wouldn't have a favorite flower, but because I'm, you know,
subliminally in my mind.
Yeah. say daffodil. But yeah.
[00:01:47] Jonathan: How did you two meet and decide that NoCode Kids was the way you
want it to go?
[00:01:53] Max: We haven't actually met in real life yet. That's for another day, but which is,
which is, which is interesting. But we met on, On Deck first, No C ode fellowship which was in
January of last year. So just over a year ago. And we'd been in the no-code space for a year
prior to that, and probably seen each other on Twitter and, but it never actually interacted or kind
of spoke to each other.
So that was where we first met. And then a few months later, I think we'd kept in contact how
many Glenn we were, you know, kept speaking and just sharing ideas, et cetera. And then I
think one day I mentioned as a fro away comment in, in Twitter DMs. Oh, it'd be cool to, ,to be

teaching this stuff to kids or something like that.
Glenn was like, I think like, I'd be interested to do that. Like, would you kind of thing, and, and
that was kind of how it was that. That is right, isn't it Glenn? And that's how
[00:02:49] Glenn: Yeah, it's a little bit like, like Twitter DM dating. Are you interested in this? Do
you want to go for a walk on the beach? But it's, it's exactly it. We, we both had an interest in it
from our experience at school from obviously just being in this space and seeing how valuable it
is to people.
And we, we just got talking about it. And as we, as we talk, we were both very animated. And,
you know, when you get animated about something, obviously it means something to you both.
And we just thought, well, if it means something to both of us, maybe we can make this work
because we knew that it would be bootstrapped, strapped.
We weren't going in with any kind of funding of this. We both have full-time jobs as such, even
though we worked for ourselves. And so I thought, well, max is somebody I think can, I could do
this with, because he's as committed as I am to, to, this is a cause. So that's, that's how, that's
how it all got started.
And, and it's been a labor of love, definitely from, from the beginning. Isn't it?
Yeah.Yeah
[00:03:40] Max: absolutely.
[00:03:41] Jonathan: So do either of you have a background in teaching?

[00:03:44] Max: Nope. Yeah, no, not that I can remember. No. You know, teaching people, you
know, in a 100DaysOfNoCode, which is the community I run. But prior to that, absolutely not.
No.
[00:03:57] Glenn: same Max. No, no. I've, I've always had to do tuition with the work I've done
in my life, whether it's because I've been in the web since like 90s, late So I've been around a
long time it whatever I, whenever I learned something, I always end up having to pass it on to
somebody, whether it's a teammate or a more, more sort of formerly and I've always enjoyed it.
I, I definitely enjoy passing on knowledge and seeing that spark, you know, there's Max, you
described them as are hard moments, don't you, when you see those, and that makes
everything really worthwhile.
And, So we both get a lot out of that. Just, just this. stuff on.
[00:04:31] Max: Yeah.
[00:04:32] Jonathan: So
[00:04:32] Max: 100DaysOfNoCode
[00:04:33] Jonathan: So a 100DaysOfNoCode must be quite an influence here. Tell us a little
bit about that and.
[00:04:40] Max: Yeah, of course. So yeah, I got started in my mind, my own no-code journey in
the start of the pandemic. So when everyone was in lockdown, I thought this was a really great
time to learn a new skill. I'd heard all the buzz and the hype about this no-code thing. And yeah,

just set forth into, to, to learning it in.
Yeah. The start of the pandemic and I didn't have any structure. I didn't have any accountability.
I didn't have any guidance or community around me to actually learn this guide. I didn't know
Glen at the time. I didn't know anyone at the time. So it was kind of a strange place to start
because I didn't know where to start.
And the only way. I could really think of, you know, holding myself accountable was literally
laying it down on Twitter and saying, I'm going to spend the next hundred days learning to know
no-code. And if anyone wants to join, join me, if not, I'm going to do it anyway. And that's kind of
how it began.
And since then, it's kind of evolved from a Twitter challenge to a community. It's a little bit more
formalized, so, so yeah, that's, that's kind of where that is at the moment.
[00:05:46] Jonathan: That was great. So when you started, what tools did you start with or
maybe what challenges did you give yourself to, to overcome in the a hundred days?
[00:05:58] Max: Yeah, it was a, it was messy. It was very messy because there wasn't any
straw. It was, you know, I, you know, heard one snippet of Twitter, like, oh, there's this cool tool
called Webflow, for example. And you know, I'd spend a day looking into that, like very very
unstructured and basically sourced from anyone that was talking about no-code on Twitter.
So I was basically doing a merry-go-round of any tool that I could get my hands on for that first,
probably 50 days. Cause I didn't know anything about the space or the ecosystem, so it was
really just going, going on a tool. And then yeah, I started focusing really on a few tools that I
could build most things with.
So soft and kind of easier tools just because I'm from a very non-technical background. So I was
the non, the ultimate non-techie if you will.
[00:06:47] Jonathan: so What before you started 100DaysOfNoCode.
[00:06:52] Max: So I was working in the kind of social innovation space and trying to basically
become it sounds, it sounds strange, but become a social entrepreneur. So I was on a program
to basically build a social venture of some form and yeah, in a roundabout way, I've ended up
doing that by empowering people with no code.
And now with kids which I think is a social venture. So I was on a path to becoming an
entrepreneur of some form, but I didn't did not anticipate this would be what it would be. Yeah.
So, yeah, that's how it came about.
[00:07:24] Jonathan: That's that's fantastic. And Glen, what's, what's your background?
[00:07:29] Glenn: I'm the opposite to Max in a way I come from a, from a very technical
background. When I started doing web stuff way back when I was immediately forced to do
HTML and CSS didn't even exist when I start ancient age.
[00:07:46] Jonathan: How old are you?
[00:07:47] Glenn: So I was doing inline code, you know, inline style code in HTML. That would,
that was, that was how how I started.
But then I sort of drifted into ASP if people remember that, which is a Microsoft thing. And, and
then linking access databases to web pages. And I thought, this is, this is magic, you know, and,
and the fact that you could you could actually just put this out there on the web and, and have
what must've been dozens of people at the time being able to see it was just, it was just that,

that's what got me, I'm like, okay, so this is, this is connecting people.
Yeah. This is something else going on here. And that just hooked me right from the get go. So I
got deep into it. I learned programming. I was originally a sort of a Ruby and Ruby on rails kind
of guy after, after my Microsoft days. And then got into obviously JavaScript CSS and all the rest
of it. And, and then it just got to the point where I got, I got a bit fed up staring at code all day.
It wasn't fulfilling me anymore. This was roundabout 2012. And and I went and got a job. I
thought I'm just going to go and do something else for awhile. This is all fed up with this. And I
did digital marketing and e-commerce, so I took that as far as I could. I really enjoyed it. It was
great, great doing that kind of work, gave me a different kind of angle onto the web and, and
users and profiles.
Yeah. Personas and handling money and all kinds of things. It was, it was really, really
fascinating, But again, I just got to the point where I wasn't enjoying being employed. So when
no-code came along. I just grabbed hold of it massively. I just thought this is, this is, this is, feels
like it did in those original days with, with you know, web 1.0, you know, if it feels, this is this is
something else all over again.
And I just had to get involved. So yeah, very quickly set up a new business, which is the Flow
Agency. Got some clients, started charging for designing and building solutions and a bit like
Max, you know, I was learning as I was going along, but because of a technical background, it
was easier to get my head around things like integration, automation, data stores, databases
APIs.
was, it was a lot more natural perhaps to me. And I thought, well, this is, this is actually probably
where the true power of all of this lies is pulling all of this together. Yeah, cherry picking the tools
that you want to use and actually getting on with it, you know? So, so that's what I've been
doing for the past, for the past sort of two, three years.
And and yeah, that was only meeting Max and, and having the opportunity to do something
more valuable with our skills and time that I thought this is actually what I really want to be
doing. So we got on with it, just started it back in. I think it was August, September. I think we
started it last year as, as, as an idea Max, right?
[00:10:31] Max: Yeah
[00:10:32] Glenn: And then we had to design the curriculum and do the course content and get
a client, our first client. And they just, it just went from there. it's been coaster since isn't it,
[00:10:41] Max: Yeah,
[00:10:42] Jonathan: So full disclosure here, I used to be the head of ICT in a, in a secondary
school. And access is, is triggering word to me because it's the, the most badly named program
ever because it's utterly inaccessible and my poor kids, they had no idea what was going on.
Maybe I didn't have any idea to be fair, but but yeah, and I mean, this was a good, long while
ago now.
Gosh, 20 years and all the teachers were up in arms when I started getting things like
LibreOffice in the, in the school rather than Microsoft Word because we've got to teach industry
standard programs, you know, and I, and I think if you compare Microsoft Word 20 years ago to
what it is today, you're probably going to have to have learned something more just to be using
the same program.
And now everybody's using Google docs anyway, which obviously it didn't exist then. So, you
know, the, the notion of there being a industry standard is shortsighted of the staff at the time.
But anyway, so, so I come at it from background and so the first thing I would think is, okay,

what are the skills and knowledge that we. need to teach?
And I would write a syllabus and all the rest of it. What was, what was your approach?
[00:12:09] Glenn: So we. actually lucky. We had somebody very interested in this as a concept
before we created anything. So Max and I thought this is an ideal opportunity then. And we put
a pre program survey together where we ask the kids, you know, what, what do you want? You
know, what, what would, what would interest you?
And we, we asked a pretty decent variety of questions, right? Max.
Across the board about Technology, Web design, Web development, igital they kind of
mentioned a few of these things and we just thought let's find out from that. And we were quite
surprised by some of the results.
We, you know, one of the things that surprised me, I don't know whether you've got any like this
Max, but the one that surprised me was , how interested they are or were in Web design
specifically. So rather than you know, the commercial aspects of this necessarily, they may,
maybe it's just all they knew, but they, they did actually specify a preference towards Web
Design.
And we thought, are they really going to enjoy this content because it's not Web design. But
what we knew was, well, at least if we're teaching web flow at the core of all of this, that we're
giving them the right web design tool from the, from the outset. So that felt good, but we, we
didn't want to focus on web design.
Their code is way more than that. So that was, that was an interesting one. Do have you got any
light that max that stood out for you?
[00:13:26] Max: I mean, the, the, the only kind of a telling thing, maybe it's telling if the, the lack
of kind of digital skills that were being taught in the school was the the fact that most people
were quite happy with. Most, most of the kids were quite happy with, you know, a 10 hour
course. We said, what kind of amount of time would you be happy to spend on, on this, this
curriculum?
How, how, how many hours would you like to learn this thing? And a few of them, like a good
majority said, you know, 10 hours. And that to us, it was quite a lot of, or longer than we actually
thought there'd be, you know, into this fall. So that was like the almost sign for us that okay.
They they're craving some digital skills as partnering with, you know, what they've told us, they
want to learn in this vicinity and those two things kind of collided and then a curriculum or a very
rough one came to, came to be, yeah.
[00:14:21] Glenn: But just to say, Jonathan, it was really important to us from the outset that
rather than teaching them just tools we, we felt it was really important to teach what we called,
what we call core concepts. So UI logic and data stores are the kind of the web flow terms that
they've used in their recent keynote speech that that Vlad was using.
And we thought those are really great descriptors actually for this, because it enables us to, to
talk relatively generically about what those three things are and not get hung up on, on
specifics. We just, we embrace that and we thought we were really going to get on board with
this, with this web flow way of doing things.
Not just because we're teaching the tool in part, but because Webflow and the whole team
there, especially the, their education team just totally get it. They totally get how to get these
concepts across in the simplest way possible. And to, and to actually drive the point home and,
and, and help people actually get on top of these concepts.

So we thought, okay, we'll do that as well. And, and that was crucial for us. So we, we, haven't
done a, a program where we're teaching people to clone Airbnb, you know, w we're not doing
that. We're teaching concepts and then giving them some tools and some missions, which is
Max's especially reality is what could we set them to do to actually make use of these skills that
they've learned.
And so it's been a real combination of practical and theoretical knowledge.
[00:15:45] Jonathan: No, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. So where, where did you find these
kids? Are they, are they learning, are they doing computer studies or, or, you know what?
[00:15:58] Max: I mean, we just pulled them off the street. Didn't make Glen.
[00:16:01] Glenn: Yeah, all of the twist style,
[00:16:06] Max: We were just leafleting in, in high school, it's across the country.
So we essentially through 100DaysOfNoCode, actually I was connected with a woman teacher
in Northern Ireland called Patricia . And she was, hearing this stuff about no-code. But she didn't
know too much about it herself, but she knew that it obviously hit a nerve.
We've heard to the extent that she wanted her kids or her students to kind of be learning about
this stuff too. So...
[00:16:32] Jonathan: she's teaching I.T.?
[00:16:35] Max: She's teaching, I think a range of topics, Glen, isn't she?.
[00:16:38] Glenn: Yeah, not specifically I.T. And she's part of a, of something that they're doing
in Northern Ireland, , across the UK where it's like a shared education program with the
education authority and, they're really encouraging there. So it was actually two schools
involved in the one cohort.
So immediately we kind of broke our model that we thought we were going to be doing, which
was one school, one cohort at a time. And immediately we got these two schools involved. And
so it was really fascinating, but yeah, Patricia, she she's been great and actually. The two
schools that have been involved and the people involved there are, have been really, really
supportive of everything we're trying to do.
We've obviously tried to give that back in return and give them anything that they need to, get
on to actually get on with this program and enjoy this program. And it's been a real synergy. And
I think the reason the models worked, it's because we've produced it and the school is able to
run it.
So even though we're available because they do a weekly session and it's, a class where they,
they call them their enrichment students. You know, this is like a, an external enrichment
program. And they had a choice actually of who, they wanted to work with and what they
wanted to study.
And so we had to do a kind of a pitch. There's like a five minute pitch video, which was dreadful.
And Max, do you remember? We did it. I think we did an awful job, but, they seem to get it
anyway. And we were really lucky and quite, quite, quite pleased really that, that they chose us
over. I don't know what else was on offer, you know, Anyway, so we, we, we got the gig and
they've just been amazing ever since, and it's helped us form this model. So we can now
replicate this, hopefully with other schools in the UK, at least where we get an agreement in
place and they, they line up the students in the cohort. It starts at a particular date, finishes at a

particular date, and we know where we need to be to support them in that.
But it's, other than that, they, they run it, you know, and it's some
[00:18:32] Jonathan: That's great. So you're, once it's running, you're kind of hands off, unless
they're asking for specific support,
that's very clever. That's very clever. Yeah.
[00:18:42] Glenn: And we think, by that way, it's scalable. You know, we,
[00:18:45] Jonathan: Yeah.
[00:18:45] Glenn: not just down to the people that are in our team, even though that's going to
grow, like how many people can we support, let them support themselves. So it is self-paced,
but one of the other things you might be interested in Jonathan is that because of access
background, but also just the way the world thought why don't support this with giving each
school a private community so that they can just log in there, share what they're working on,
help each other out. And actually just know that the outside world can't get in and, you know, it's
a safe place. The school adults are involved can be moderators in there, et cetera, et cetera.
And so we launched that at the same time and said, you know, this, this is your school
community, but nobody else can get in then as cohorts, come in over time. Hopefully we'll be
doing many with them years to come that they'll each go into that same private school
community. And they'll see, what's been posted before, which is fine.
And hopefully that will grow over time with the ultimate aim of having maybe a broader, more
open. No-code kids community where every graduate that goes through the program is invited
to come and join the wider community. And then hopefully that's then a long-term one that they'll
be in for a while and could become ambassadors.
And who knows maybe even be hired by us.
[00:20:07] Jonathan: Yeah. So a couple of things I want to dig into that want to come back to
the community bit later. But they, in terms of what you're teaching, you've got a 10 hour
program. and presumably they do homework and spend as much time on the weekends as they
want on this. So, they can develop what they're looking for.
And, you were talking about teaching the concepts of UI data and logic so what tell us about,
because it's a no code, so it's not all done through Webflowers, I'm assuming that what other
tools have you used as well to teach these things? Can you give us some examples of things
that you've asked the kids to
[00:20:45] Max: Yeah,
it's true.
[00:20:46] Glenn: You could do the missions tools and I can do the core concepts tools.
[00:20:49] Max: We first just start out with not assuming, you know, that they know anything
about this world that we're in. So we just quickly paint the picture of what the heck is, is no code.
So we get that out of the way very quickly. And, and we actually get them to do one of the first
things we got them to do is build something in our table.
A little journal to track their progress along the way, and that is without giving them any teaching
without any prior knowledge. And it's just a mini tutorial to kind of get their first project under
their belt. And then we get into to Glenn stuff, which is the core concepts and really laying the

foundations.
Maybe Glen, you can speak to that a bit more.
[00:21:29] Glenn: Okay, mate. So, yeah, so there we, we do focus on Webflow, but we look at
SystemFlow as a design system that they can actually get into, because we liked this idea of,
not trying to teach web design, we're not gonna teach you how to use Webflow, but if you've got
these pre-made components or libraries where you can actually just get on with it, we didn't
want a template either.
We also talked about that, you know, rather than just picking a template, which might feel quite
restrictive. We want it to just say, look, you could build whatever you like, as long as you've got
the right building blocks. So SystemFlow is a fit for that. I'd used it in commercial product
projects before as well, quite heavily.
So it made sense. And SystemFlow are one of the supporters of this program. Incidentally, all of
the people involved have been really great in that SystemFlow are allowing our students to use.
system for free, as long as they're not using it in a commercial capacity. And we've just been
really grateful for people like them Webflows the same, they've given they have an academic
kind of route anyway, where they support students now by giving them a free CMS plan for a
year.
They get to use collections and really get stuck into Webflow properly without any restrictions.
So, yeah, really we're grateful to our, we don't call them sponsors per se, but there are definitely
partners in this and that, being there that's also free. So yeah, SystemFlow we then introduced
Jetboost, but equally FinSweet attributes, we talked about the fact that they've got options and it
was one of the points we make in fact is you don't have to use any one of these.
This is completely up to you. Use what you like, or what suits your budget or whatever you
need. This, this is important that we're teaching you some great real world heavy duty tools
here, but you don't have to use them, you know, it's up to you. ,We did that in the core concepts.
We're definitely bringing in Airtable. We bring in, Make formerly known as Integromat.
[00:23:20] Jonathan: I was wondering what you were talking about then. Yes.
[00:23:23] Glenn: it's a difficult one because you know, I'm a partner of, Make and you don't call
it make.com. It is just "Make" but it's difficult because people don't necessarily know what you're
talking about. Like you just said. So I, at the moment, anyway, I'm saying formerly known as
Integromat. It's like symbol, you know, formally go to sprints.
Yeah. So yeah, there's, there's those tools and yeah, we've just really wanted to show real, real
world examples where you've got Airtable working with you know, with Make and Webflow and
that's all synchronizing. And then you've got Jetboosters. It's, they've learned a lot by the end of
those core concepts, stuff that no code . And Max will be Testament to this take time to get quite
a bit of time and, and, practice to get to the point where you're on, but you really understand
those core concepts. So to get that across quite quickly was definitely a challenge, but we just
thought video format, demonstrations, making sure that they, can create their own accounts and
play with it.
That that was really key.
[00:24:18] Jonathan: Yeah. I guess there's quite a lot of peer learning going on there as well,
where they're all just mucking in and helping each other.
Is that a formal part of Is there any way that you record that at all? Or

[00:24:30] Glenn: yeah.
[00:24:31] Max: I was just going to say that, you know, that's why we've, we've created this
community space for them to essentially, you know, interact and share resources and, and kind
of help each other. It's, it's interesting We really want to, in future programs, want to push that
more because that's where the magic really happens is, not the one way learning just from us.
It's the two way stuff that where they're kind of actually you know, compounding their knowledge
with each other by sharing. But yeah, we, we, we do that in the community. And that's what we
want to see more of. But Glenn, did you any more to say on that?
[00:25:08] Glenn: Only to say that it was interesting to just observe that it didn't necessarily
come natural to this cohort anyway, to actually embrace that as, as an approach, as part of the
learning style. And we'll yeah, we'll be talking to Patricia and the other teachers involved
because we were kind of keen to know.
How we can actually support that better and to see whether or not that's, that's a, that's a real
barrier. You know, do they feel like they should be getting on with, with the work and are they
wasting time, you know, in a, in a forum slash community type setting, you know, if that's a
psychological thing to overcome, then we need to be able to encourage that as, a joint unit, as a
partnership between ourselves and the schools, because it is important.
And one of the things that we think we maybe didn't get across this time is how that really is the
case. Now in the outside world, this is people are either working remotely or within Slack or
whatever it might be. And it's part of, of what it is to be in a working environment now. And it's
not, it's not actually goofing off it's, it's part of the way we work and collaborate.
So maybe we didn't get that across as well as we could have done.
[00:26:12] Jonathan: Yeah. I mean you know, just look at the Webflowers Twitter community
with everybody sharing everything all the time and everybody learning from everybody all the
time,
it, it, you can't do it by yourself and, and you get those high moments when you see what
somebody has done and you just can't. I just needed that. That's just come up just the right time
for me for
[00:26:34] Glenn: just the right time here. It's the idea of serendipity, isn't it? Kate, Kate there,
you know, it, it don't go. Twitter's obviously huge, huge sort of head in our community and he
talks about it. Doesn't need this idea of increasing the surface area of your luck. You know, we,
we definitely love that concept.
You're the more you put out there, the more you engage, the more you learn, the more you get
back and, and it, yeah, so maybe that's something that is, is maybe missing still in the school
setting where it is still a bit of an echo chamber. And that idea of being able to collaborate,
maybe just hasn't matured in line with the way it isn't an industry yet. And it's something that if
we can do it even just in the setting of this program and give them a bit of exposure to that then
that will maybe help a little bit before they go in the outside world.
[00:27:20] Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, I've just been seeing some things on Twitter recently about
people applying for jobs and they said, didn't get the job because they said we all the time of I,
other people saying, oh No.
it's, it's all about We. None of these projects happen in isolation and if you can't work as a team
player, so it's, an interesting one.

And I definitely think schools are still focused very much on individuals passing exams
and saying, this is, this is my, this is my contribution. This is what I can do. and that's right. But
up to a point because, you know, and I'm the first person to say you know, , any team stuff that
we had to do at school No thank you. Not interested. I like getting my head down and doing my
own thing. And the
beautiful thing about remote is that I can do that and then I can also see what else is going on
and learn from other people too. So I get the best of both worlds now. So that's, that's really
interesting,
[00:28:17] Glenn: Yeah,
[00:28:18] Jonathan: on then community. So where did you build this community?
[00:28:22] Glenn: I'll do the platform, but you can talk about it. So we've partnered with a really
interesting platform Beam--B-E-A-M
Beam And. It's built by a kind of gamers. So right from the get-go they wanted to have a
platform which was, felt, it felt different. You know, it wasn't wasn't Slack, it wasn't The Forum
It had gaming elements to it. So, or gamification elements to it, whether that's earning badges
or XP, you know, experience points or whatever it might be. So we thought this could work really
well. Now, even though our first experience with the kids has been the sort of six formers they're
sort of 16 to 18, some 18 year olds.
So, you know, we, we thought, well, we'd still need to use a platform that can be attractive to.
the lower end. Cause we're looking at 18, sorry, 11 to 18 as a bracket. So we thought, okay,
let's, let's bring that in and have fun at all icons and all kinds of stuff. So we did that. It didn't
seem to make any difference in terms of increasing the engagement with this particular age
group, but we, we do still stand by the idea that, that the more gamification we can put in and
the more fun it is maybe that will help with using it.
So yeah, Beam is the platform and it's still quite young but it's, building all the time. It's very
active. They're, releasing stuff all the time. They've just released, for example, just this week,
two days ago the ability to handle paid subscription as part of the joining of that community
which is all using Stripe connect, which is a great feature.
Not all communities make that easy. You know, you have to, as Maxwell say, you have to go and
use a completely different system just to handle the payment side of the community. It's not built
in to the platform. So that was, that's a bonus and something we might look at in the future, but
for now it's part and parcel of the program that they, buy into.
[00:30:05] Max: We kind of approached it in similar way to probably how you interact with, you
the no-code communities and the Webflow communities that you're already in. And maybe that
was , where we went wrong, trying to replicate our world and put it in that world. I've, you know,
having asks and offers channel having like an introductions channel, all these things that are
very common to us, but may be quite foreign to them because it's all grounded in sharing and
that's probably something they're not used to doing. So I think we, we maybe, or I kind of made
the wrong assumption that they would be happy to share which was basically what lots of our
channels and how we design that community was based around.
So I think next time we'll probably, you know, hold their hand a little bit more in that process of
sharing and kind of nurturing that interaction more. But yeah, we, we saw, we started to see
more engagement in the weeks on the, on the tail end of the program. But there's still work to be
done there.

What that community looks like for kids will be interesting to see what format. Eventually you
land on for that
[00:31:16] Jonathan: the program's finished now. And we'll just talk about that in a moment, but
do they still have access to that community?
[00:31:22] Max: Yes. Yeah.
[00:31:23] Glenn: So we've said that it's a lifetime, it's a lifetime access basis. Yep. So for the,
for the early cohorts, we haven't decided how many yet, but we're, we're giving them lifetime
access for them. Even if they leave school because they do use their school email addresses.
And obviously once you've left school, our assumption is they no longer have access to those
email addresses.
So we we've offered for them to be able to switch out their emails to a private email once they
leave school, like, we really want to reward them for being the pioneers really with this with us.
And as that program evolves over time and we, improve the content, add more content we've
even talked about doing multiple. courses under the program. So at the moment, it's just almost
like one course within the program of fundamentals, but actually we might do a Web design
course. We might do a an AI course and then actually have those all listed under that same
program. So in time they'll get access to a lot more than, than they have originally seen which is
just a bonus for them, for them believing in us early, early believers, early adopters.
[00:32:25] Jonathan: No that's nice,
Maybe I can see a problem with NoCode Kids as a brand name, if if they're going to be 40 year
olds still using it, but a
[00:32:35] Glenn: Well, hopefully they're there.
[00:32:37] Jonathan: when you get to it.
[00:32:39] Max: Yeah.
[00:32:39] Glenn: Hopefully when we move them over into the broader community maybe they
become more moderators and, and advocates as opposed to kids themselves, but it was
actually something we wrangled over right at the beginning is do we use kids in the name or
not? But we, we thought we have to be brave here and remember that the focus it is primarily
about just this period of time when you're still at school.
So yeah, we, we, we were Braven that.
[00:33:04] Jonathan: So tell me about some of the projects that.
the kids have made.
[00:33:10] Max: , I'll say this one. So you know, going back to that point earlier about sharing
that the kids or the 17 year olds in this case, 16, 17 year olds. Yeah. They, they weren't very
used to sharing, so we only really got a feel for what they were building literally in the last couple
of weeks.
I would say, and one example, which was just interesting is instead of them actually, And maybe
they were building this, but instead of them building projects to tackle climate change or like
external projects, what we saw was that they were building projects that just make their lives
easier, which is completely fine.

So like there was one automation, someone made to send all their records or, or songs that they
listen to on Spotify into a certain playlist, like a really niche, like example, but something that just
helps them find and create all their music that they're listening to.
And that's the skills that they can take into the workspace regardless
of whether they're building their own ventures or not. So I think that was something we saw or
was that, is that fair Glenn.
[00:34:17] Glenn: Yeah, that, that was my favorite example as well, actually, because it was
where she had taken the idea of what she had learned and the mission that she was given.
They were all given eight missions to complete and that particular mission, and she made it her
own. And that, and that was what we want to do achieve is don't just copy the thing.
Don't do the thing. We're kind of asking you to, to look out, come up with your own version of it.
So we're really pleased to see that, of adaptation and just thinking outside the box. Cause that,
was a key part of what we were driving out as a no-code or you don't, you don't learn to build
something in one tool and then come across a new situation and fall over because it's not the
same as the thing you've already learned.
You've got all of these ideas and concepts and you can pretty much build anything. So yeah,
we're pleased to see that.
[00:35:02] Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, which takes me back to my point about, you know, teaching
Microsoft products in school 20 years ago, you know? You have no idea what what's around the
corner and, and it's the fundamental concepts, UI data logic that, that you've got to get across.
Those things aren't going to change, or if they do change, they'll change more slowly than the
tools that we're using.
So Yeah.
[00:35:26] Glenn: And another interesting aspect of that, just, just share this, because this is
something that we realized as we were designing, this was that those three concepts aren't
even like bubbles, that, that don't intersect. You know, they're not three different things that there
is genuinely this intersection.
And an example of that might be. You've learned about automation, perhaps, you know how to
send some data somewhere to do something. And maybe you've been doing that so far using
Zapier and all of a sudden you're in Airtable and you decide that you're going to do what we're
calling an in-app automation.
You know, you're using the automation tools within that platform. The concepts are the same,
you know, you're doing some kind of trigger and it's doing some kind of action or maybe there's
some kind of branching and, you know, it's all the same stuff. So. You know, seeing, seeing how
the kids can jump between these platforms and not feel like I've got to automation, I've got to
use Airtable for my data store.
I've got to, I've got to, I've got to, you know, it's a, it's very encouraging to see that level of
liberation and an exploration going on where yeah, we've not, we've not trapped them in these
silos. You know, this really is just a, you could transport this concept into, another area of your
life, whatever that might be and whatever tool you might be using.
And our biggest kind of ambition with this is for these kids to go out into the outside world, go
into a team setting, say to get their first job and they're in a marketing team and that marketing
team say. We're having real problems with our data.

You know, we've got all of this, all of these subscribers over here and we're not handling them
well. And we're worried about GDPR and I'll begin, you know, we're going to get fined if we're
not careful, these real world problems in a business sense, one of our kids saying, well, you
could just use Zapier for that.
You know, it's, it's almost like if they could go in and precociously say I could do that. Yeah.
They're teaching something. They're bringing something into that organization, which perhaps
they've never heard of. And that that's really exciting.
[00:37:26] Jonathan: Yeah. And especially, you know, I mean that, that whole workflow thing of
building landing pages and building marketing sites and so forth, you know, that ability to
change but there's an awful lot more than just the content on the page that needs changing. It's
the whole system.
And so understanding who your customers are and where they are and, and, and what you can
do with the data that you've got from them is huge. Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:37:53] Glenn: Really huge. And in my experience, you know, you don't get necessarily
managers, especially when they get to upper management level, who really understand these
things. You know, they're, they're, they're beyond that in what they do their role in the
organization is quite different. So as a worker in a team or even the middle management level of
a team, you have to be aware of these concepts is really, really important.
Data has become such a lifeblood for it, for any organization, whether it's a commercial
enterprise or not is so crucial. And yet one of the things that, we were getting a hint of, I think
with, with these kids was, you know, databases and data work is either maybe a bit boring or not
so interesting as design anyway, or it's more for that kind of person, you know, you're a technical
person or a you know, a, more of a geek type person. Well, actually, you know, boxing is a great
example in the marketing team. You may not be particularly geeky, but you still have to know
how data works. This is so crucial to, actually getting marketing right. And as you say, tracking
even, you know, knowing what's happening with those users and, and what happens as they
interact with your brand it's just so huge. And so, yeah, just giving them that, that confidence, I
guess.
And,
maybe, maybe just , show, demonstrate that it's not boring. This is something that's actually
quite exciting.
[00:39:14] Jonathan: Yeah. I'm just thinking, again, it's a marketing example, but getting into
Google analytics and following people through things and knowing what to do with that data
hugely important, hugely important. And, you know, and then knowing what that does to the
interface, you know, well, let's change the button to red. It's all there. So Yeah, Fantastic. So
you're first cohorts gone through, it's been a raging success with all sorts of caveats. What's
next?
[00:39:43] Glenn: We've just been having a conversation about it just yesterday. I think maybe
where, where do we go next? I'll let you
[00:39:49] Max: I think it's about, getting this into the hands of more, more kids. That's like the
bottom line. So, and how do we do that? And I think that's really comes down to, to one, you
know, sharing, partnering with more schools, but then also on the flip side of that, tapping into
the, you know, the growing kind of homeschool market, Obviously with COVID, there's many
more parents homeschooling, so we feel this could be a really nice addition to that
homeschooling toolkit or whatever you call it.

So we feel that that's a somewhere we want to also provide this material to And then just
partner with, we've also disadvantaged kids in schools that maybe don't have the money to
actually buy or pay for this this curriculum and kind of focusing on some scholarships that we
can give out to really increase the impact of what we're doing. So I think those three things
combined there's a lot there there's a lot to do, but slowly just growing those partnerships.
[00:40:44] Glenn: the international market as well. This isn't just for the UK. We've had interest
from literally all over the world, people DM-ing us and just showing interesting. I've got a child,
how can I get them on this? You know, it really, it's almost like a, a call of desperation for, from
some people. I can't find the right material out there to introduce my kids to this.
I want to be able to do it with them all kinds of different aspects. And we're just thinking, how do
we support this best without, without losing our focus on what we set out to do, which is
partnering within schools. That's our, that is our, our main mission here. So. Yeah just definitely
about relationship building now with the schools.
One of the interesting things that we have found as a result of this is that the, one of the schools
that the two schools that we've worked with so far is, is so interested in this and, and digital
creativity as a whole, that they've just told us that they've hired a new member of staff was run a
whole brand new initiative in their school for encouraging teaching, et cetera, digital creativity,
which is hugely exciting.
You know not just because of what they've done with us. They're obviously looking at this
already, but we've contributed to that.
And you know, that's amazing that, that they see this as part of that. it's not just web design and
the traditional stuff that they used to, they are including no code now as part of what it means to
be created digitally.
And they're like, oh, that's music to our ears. That's exactly what we want to see going on in
schools.
[00:42:13] Jonathan: yeah.
[00:42:14] Glenn: Really
[00:42:14] Jonathan: That's that's really good. Yeah. So NoCode families is coming along and
NoCode teachers is coming along. yeah. Okay.
[00:42:22] Glenn: Huge. Wow. Okay. So that's, that's just tripled our workload this
[00:42:26] Jonathan: Yeah. And it's just the two of you.
[00:42:28] Glenn: So far. Yeah, indeed. But you know, we've got we've always had this idea that
if we've got the 16 to 18 year old, the 18 year olds in particular who might be going through this,
and they're the ones that really get it and maybe do want some work experience or, or whatever
that might be, that we've got instant, no code is sort of ready to take on who already get the way
we think and work.
So, yeah. We're definitely open to that. And who knows, you know, we, we are also looking at
what might happen if we did actually get some government funding, some kind of grant this.
How, how fast can we actually then accelerate some of this work in, into schools or, or other
places? So we're, we're open to a lot of different avenues this and exciting
[00:43:09] Jonathan: Yeah. Very nice.

Glen, Max, thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. I mean, my favorite
part was the fact that you just, ran the interview by yourselves. Really I didn't have to do
anything, which was lovely.
[00:43:22] Glenn: Tend to talk a lot about this.
[00:43:24] Jonathan: But eloquently. So, you know it's clear that you've really got a good idea of
what you're doing and, and why you're doing it I think it's the why you're doing it. That is so
exciting that you are actually changing the world here. Let's be honest that's, what's going to
happen and that's very, very exciting. So well done to both of you. That's brilliant. Okay. So I, I
will see you all next time on the Webflowers podcast and until then, goodbye.
. But let's start with you know, Why NoCode Kids How did you two hook up with each other? Am
I allowed to use the words hookup? In the English sense
[00:44:21] Glenn: I'll let you answer that one
[00:44:22] Jonathan: I'll, I'll start, I'll start this question again.

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