Meet the Guest

Grace Walker

Grace Walker

Grace is a freelance designer living in Calgary, Canada. She specializes in design and Webflow development for small and medium-sized businesses.

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[00:00:00] Jonathan:

[00:00:05] Jonathan: Welcome to the Webflowers podcast. This week, I'm talking with

Grace Walker. Who's a freelance designer living in Calgary, Canada. Grace specializes in

design and Webflow development for small and medium-sized businesses.

[00:00:25] Jonathan: But first a word of thanks.

[00:00:29] Jonathan: Octopus do that's octopus dot D O is a fast and clean site mapper

tool. Create your website map, add notes, specify page content, and use color schemes to

improve your site map design or content planning. That's octopus dot D O.

[00:00:46] Jonathan: Hey grace. Welcome to Webflowers.

[00:00:52] Grace: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here..

[00:00:54] Jonathan: What's your favorite flower?

[00:00:55] Grace: My favorite flower are lilacs. I grew up with lilacs in my backyard at my

parents' house. I have them in my yard now. The winter in Calgary is very dark and bleak and

cold. And in the spring time, when the leaves start to come in, The lilacs bloom all around the

city and it's just truly the best feeling in the entire world.

[00:01:18] Grace: And every spring, I just, I love that. And it reminds me of lilacs because

they are the big flower that, that comes out then. So just lots of, lots of happy, happy memories

with lilacs.

[00:01:32] Jonathan: Fantastic. Fantastic. Yeah. And you like spending a lot of time

You're a cyclist.

[00:01:38] Grace: Yes, I'm a, I'm a cyclist and a runner. The running is a little bit newer

than the cycling.

[00:01:42] Grace: But that's, that's kind of the primary reason. I moved back to Calgary. I

went to university in Toronto and came back because. Of the cycling and the mountains. And

the host that, that we're in right now, we're really close to a beautiful running trail.

[00:01:56] Grace: So it's a nice balance from all of my screen time to have hobbies that

are very much

[00:02:04] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what kind of what kind of cycling is it

hardcore up the Hills?

[00:02:09] Grace: I'm primarily road cycling. We do a lot of city riding in the summer just

because that's where we live. But in the summertime I also try to go out every Monday for what I

call mountain Mondays, my partner and I. Those have worked off of that day and I'm freelance

so I can take it off whenever I like.

[00:02:27] Grace: And we have mountain Mondays where every Monday we go ride our

bikes in the mountains.

[00:02:31] Jonathan: That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And presumably it's fairly

empty there because at the weekend it's all been everyone's cleared out

[00:02:38] Grace: Yeah, Monday's are quite nice.

[00:02:40] Grace: The mountains it's Banff national park. So if you're familiar with north

America, it's, it's always busy in the summer, but it's a little bit less busy on Mondays.

[00:02:49] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. So talking about the weather and the

darkness and the, and the light of summer sort of brings me nicely to, to what I, what I wanted to

talk to you about today. First of all, there are two topics, but first of all, I want to talk to you about

mood boards. Do I know that your, your just know, mood boards are just exquisite?

[00:03:10] Jonathan: They're amazing. But do you think that they change during the

seasons? Do you think you do different mood boards in winter than you do in summer?

[00:03:22] Grace: Oh, gosh, I don't know. I would hope not. But probably

[00:03:26] Jonathan: I just wonder, I mean,

[00:03:29] Grace: there's influences to everything that you do. So obviously the weather

is going to impact

[00:03:34] Grace: your design abilities and design outcome. To some extent, but I'm

primarily trying to influence my mood boards with research, with brand personas, with other kind

of associations. so, I hope that they're not too influenced by the weather. Otherwise my winter

clients might be a little bit dreary, but.

[00:03:55] Jonathan: so so I'll tell us how you, how you build a mood board then. Cause

I, I, I watched, I watched the, you did the thing on Facebook and I'll put a link in the show notes.

It'll talk on the, on the SEO web flow Facebook page back in October, I think it was. And and I

was just blown away by these things.

[00:04:11] Jonathan: So. Can you , just sort of explain your process how it comes,

where it all comes from. And then I want you to talk about, okay, you've got a mood board, but

how does that translate into what a design looks like?

[00:04:24] Grace: Definitely. So I think mood boards are really important for. Any design

when I'm starting to just set the tone of what I want to do. So essentially what a mood board is is

if you're not familiar is a visual representation of the tone and the style, the color, photography

of, of how you want a brand to look.

[00:04:45] Grace: It's not something that's super refined, but it is something that you

want to kind of get little flavors here and there. What you want the end outcome to look like? So

[00:04:54] Grace: a mood board happens at the beginning of a project it's usually after

I've done a kickoff with a client. Sometimes a mood board is based on existing brand elements.

[00:05:04] Grace: If I'm working with a brand that already has a logo and a color palette,

but maybe we're just diving deeper into the look and feel other times it's starting from scratch

and maybe developing two or three mood boards. Two or three different directions if they don't

have anything to start with yet. So when I'm creating a mood board, I'm, I'm sourcing illustration,

typography, colors, photography from like all places around the internet and basically creating a

composition that has the vibe or the look that I want to bring to the final one.

[00:05:38] Jonathan: that's, that's interesting. You say the word composition because it

that's, that's something I hadn't thought of, but that's exactly what you do. You're creating a kind

of finished product. They're so beautiful that you could actually sell that as a, as a work of art or

maybe even an NFT.. But it's, it's it just, I haven't thought about that, but it's it's it is in and of

itself a finished thing, isn't it?

[00:06:06] Grace: It's sometimes is I used to spend a lot more time on mood boards, like

days and days and days, and well, perhaps not that long, but I would spend days on a mood

board and it would be. It really would be this beautiful thing. And I kind of realized through time

that there's a certain point where the mood board has served its purpose and you don't need to

keep developing that because that's not the end product.

[00:06:29] Grace: If, if you have kind of the general look and feel down, it's a good place

to stop because you need to move forward with other things. But I mean, if you have the time

creating mood boards, it's just really fun.

[00:06:40] Jonathan: So you've got your mood board and then you say you've got to

move on. What's next.

[00:06:46] Grace: Yeah. so typically once I have a mood board and I've kind of

established the general look and feel of what I'm trying to do, I will do sketches of the wireframe

of a website and try to consider how those mood board elements could be put into the actual

web design itself. So. Once I'm jumping on screen, what that looks like is implementing the color

or trying out the topography trying to echo the layout from some of the mood board elements

into the web design.

[00:07:16] Grace: And it's, it's really kind of a fluid process. There's no formula for how

do you, translate a mood board into a web design? It's really just, does this feel like the same

kind of feeling as the mood Does this feel like how I want the brand to feel? Does this feel like

what the client has described to me of how they want to be seen?

[00:07:34] Grace: And just kind of checking in with those kinds of questions as I'm going?

[00:07:38] Jonathan: so you you talked about the wireframes where have they come


[00:07:44] Grace: Yeah. So wireframes everybody. I feel like everybody does wireframes

differently, but for me, a wire frame is usually a sketch and it's usually. A very quick sketch to

map out the elements of a webpage before I'm spending too much time online. I basically want

to say here's the header. Here are the different sections.

[00:08:06] Grace: Here's a layout that I could use for each to give myself a starting point.

So I'm not just jumping onto a blank screen and thinking, oh gosh, what do I do now? I'd have at

least a little bit of a brief roadmap. And that's also informed by a site map and.

[00:08:21] Jonathan: Right. So, so they you've got those, those elements. You've got a

Nav bar, you know that you're going to have a hero section of some sort, you're going to have a

button you're going to have a decorative elements may be. So those, those are the things that

you start then to design. With that mood board in the back of your head or the back of your


[00:08:38] Jonathan: All the, all the way through. .

[00:08:40] Grace: Yeah.

[00:08:41] Jonathan: So you talked earlier about making maybe two or three mood

boards for, for one client. If you don't have branding already, how does that work and how do

you make one sort of direction, the way that you want to go?

[00:08:53] Jonathan: Do you show all of these to your clients and let them pick or, or, or


[00:08:58] Grace: Yeah, so it kind of depends on the client, but typically what I'm doing is

I keep mood boards for myself. There are some clients who want to see them and if they

express interest in that, I'm happy to share, but. I'm typically creating the mood boards for

myself as a direction and a guide. And then from there, I'll take those mood boards and put

them into a homepage design.

[00:09:19] Grace: So that's what I'm showing a client is. If, if we're doing a branding

project as well, and establishing that look and feel. Two different directions. I'll present them with

two complete homepage designs to kind of pick from so that they can see their brand and

company expressed in, in two different ways.

[00:09:36] Grace: And typically I try to pull those apart based on my color palette and

darkness and lightness and tone of the photography and all of those kinds of things.

[00:09:46] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Nice. Nice. Now I was looking at a couple

of your websites and at, most of them have the nav across the top, but one of them certainly

has it along the side, on the left. Why, what makes you decide this needs to be in a different


[00:10:08] Grace: Yeah, so I think it's appropriate to kind of break those conventions for

a website or for a brand when it fits with their persona and their They're kind of attributes. so.

[00:10:21] Grace: I think you're referring to Opsyne. But I've done this on other websites

as well, and it's, it's, it's something nice to do. To kind of show that there may be a little bit

unconventional or they're forward thinking, or kind of any attribute, just because they're breaking

the status quo of what they're doing.

[00:10:38] Grace: Obviously that has functionality implications. So you don't want to do

that for a site that is like purely informational or something that is maybe. Really dependent on

SEO and people needing fast information because you're kind of hiding things behind to a

hamburger now. But if you have a brand that wants to be a little bit more experimental, wants to

be a little bit unconventional doing unconventional things with your navigation or expected

elements can be a nice way to kind of subtly bring that

[00:11:05] Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, we often see that left-hand nav with, with things like

wikis. And so I wondered if there was maybe some something there with that particular design,

but, but no, I mean, it, it, it does make sense that And I, and I'm really pleased that you

mentioned that, that, that sort of SEO, it ease of use that we are actually hiding things behind

that hamburger menu and stuff.

[00:11:26] Jonathan: I think it's important that as, as designers and developers, we just

kind of keep all of these things in mind. There are so many things to think about in the whole

process. It's just, it's not even funny, you know, and there's people with, you know, teams and

teams and teams of people. Doing what, what you on your own doing?

[00:11:45] Jonathan: It's it's quite amazing. Okay.

[00:11:49] Jonathan: So we'll take a little break and we'll be back after this.

[00:11:56] Jonathan: octopus, do that's octopus dot D O is a fast and clean site mapper tool.

Create your website map, add notes, specify page content, and use color schemes to improve

your site map design or content planning. That's octopus dot D O

[00:12:16] Jonathan: Welcome back to Webflowers .This week. I'm talking with Grace Walker.

Who's a freelance designer from Calgary in Canada. So Grace, before the break, you were

talking about how precise a measured you are as a person. And you've been Tweeting recently

about how, how you track your time.

[00:12:30] Jonathan: You see how many hours you spend,

[00:12:34] Jonathan: Why do you, or did you do it? Why did it.

[00:12:40] Grace: Yeah, I think there's just a part of my personality that gets a lot of joy from

organization and having things be in their nice little buckets. And so that part of my personality,

like if you were to come to my house, my house reflects that as well. Everything's very neat and

tidy and organized. And so that comes into my work as well with time tracking and project

management and The, yeah, I guess the reason why I do that, it's just, I feel joy from it.

[00:13:08] Grace: And it also just helps me feel a lot less anxiety about my work, to know where

everything is and how much time I'm spending and that everything is taken care of.

[00:13:17] Jonathan: Okay. I can, I can, I can accept the anxiety bit, but the joy. How has it

joyful to be so organized and know exactly how many minutes you spent on a particular project

[00:13:28] Grace: I think it ties into this concept of, of having a calm life and knowing that

everything is taken care of and everything else. So I like that idea. I'm I strive for minimalism

and a lot of things that I do. And I think that that ties into the joy of organization because you

know, where everything is, everything's taken care of.

[00:13:49] Grace: There's not just kind of a mental mess around you. And I know that some

people thrive in that and they want to have a million different things going on all the time. But for

me, that's quite overwhelming. So that part of my life comes into work. It comes into my house,

it comes into my personality.

[00:14:05] Grace: It's it's all over.

[00:14:07] Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, the listeners at home can't see, I can see your, your walls

and they are pure white. There are some really interesting little nooks and crannies and shelves

and things, and, and that is one painting. And the painting, is it a lighthouse?

[00:14:23] Grace: it's a Prairie photograph. So it's a photograph of a grain silo on a

[00:14:28] Jonathan: Ah, it's a grain silo. Okay. I could have been. Yeah. But, but 99% of it is

sky and

[00:14:35] Grace: sky.

[00:14:36] Jonathan: mostly white sky with cloud Beautiful. But, but yeah, extremely minimalist.

So yeah, I can, I can, I can see where that's coming from. Fair enough. Yeah. Okay. So what,

what, what tools do you use to help yourself be organised?

[00:14:54] Grace: Yeah. So I have tools that I use that have habit, but I'm also open to exploring

new ones and I'm really interested in how other people organize themselves. But the tools that I

primarily use are Asana for project management. So that's where all of my projects live. All of

my timelines, all of my tasks.

[00:15:12] Grace: And I'm mostly just using the calendar view of Asana to see when tasks are

due. They're all color coded. It looks like a Smartie box. It's very fun. And then

[00:15:21] Grace: for time tracking,

[00:15:21] Jonathan: a minimalist smartie box

[00:15:23] Grace: yes. Yes. That's the, that's the colorful part of my life is my Asana dashboard.

And then for time tracking, I'm using Harvest it's a really popular software in Canada and north


[00:15:34] Grace: Mostly it's used for larger teams for time tracking. And I used it at a previous

position that I was at and really enjoyed the interface. So I just kept using that when I went

freelance and it's been great. And then I can do my invoicing through harvest as well. So those

are my two primary organization tools.

[00:15:49] Grace: And then I also every few days I'll write out a new to-do list on a piece of grid

paper. I have a grid paper pad that sits in front of my keyboard every day. And so that's where I

write out my like daily tasks and what needs to get done because not all of those tasks are

always on Asana.

[00:16:06] Jonathan: Why, why aren't they all on Asana put you're worrying me now

[00:16:09] Grace: Because it's some things they're like reply to so-and-so's email or send out

this thing to someone. And so those tasks aren't, they're not big enough, like deliverables for me

to put in my Asana. So I like to just write them down.

[00:16:22] Jonathan: Okay.

[00:16:22] Jonathan: Do you, do you strive for inbox zero?

[00:16:26] Grace: I do. Yeah.

[00:16:27] Grace: Thank you for asking. I love, I love having inbox zero. It's not always

achievable, but I don't have so many clients or so many things going on that it's not a possibility

for me. I am a team of one, so it's not like I have people constantly emailing me with things like

that. So I am very much an inbox, zero person that does not translate to my Slack channels.

[00:16:49] Grace: I'm not a Slack, zero person. A lot of my Slack channels are quite messy, but

my, my email inbox is very organized.

[00:16:56] Jonathan: And now you, you mentioned Slack, but you haven't mentioned

Slackbefore. How do you use slack? What do you use it for? Can you just tell us what it is? I

think I would think a lot of people won't even know what's.

[00:17:06] Grace: Yeah. So slack is a messaging platform that you can organize chats by

channel and have various kind of teams going at one time per, per channel. So I use slack for a

number of different things. There's, there's Webflow slacks that I'm a part of, so that other

Webflow designers and Webflow experts can chat with one another on different things.

[00:17:27] Grace: And I'm also integrated into a few of my clients, slack. So I have clients that

have like internal marketing teams and so I'm in their slack so that they can just easily and

openly communicate with me there. But it really depends on the clients. And if that's part of their

workflow already, if I'm integrated into that,

[00:17:43] Jonathan: Okay. Okay. So I mean, this year you've got. Evidently done a lot of

building of new websites, but I I'm interested there in terms of the marketing side of things. Are

you are you then involved in upkeeping of websites of doing little bits and pieces for them? Or

do you hand over and say no? It's your job? You get on with it

[00:18:05] Grace: it's a bit of both actually. So some clients that have larger marketing teams

and they need ongoing support because they're implementing new things constantly, or just

want to have that extra support I'm available for that. For most of my clients. Primarily the sites

that I'm building, I do a website training session.

[00:18:24] Grace: We go over the web flow editor, they know how to input content and, and they

go on their Merry way. So I'm, I'm usually only involved when they need a new section or

something's not working that kind of thing. But there are a few clients that I'm more involved in

their marketing strategy and just understanding their larger marketing goals and how the

website plays into that.

[00:18:44] Jonathan: Okay. So do you charge retainers for that or do you just charge a, a lump

sum when they, when they need a big project and the rest of the time, it's just, it's just free.

[00:18:56] Grace: Yeah. so some are hourly. So if someone needs just like one addition and

they haven't really needed anything before that, or, or don't plan to after, it'll just be an hourly

charge based on how long it takes me to do the addition. I do have a couple clients on monthly

retainers to do kind of website updates and analytics and that kind of thing.

[00:19:15] Grace: And then obviously things like, if there's. It's not linked or something goes

wrong. It's very, very small. I include those kinds of edits in just the customer service of building

your website and so small things like that. I'm always just happy to change for free.

[00:19:31] Jonathan: Yeah. Okay. Okay.

[00:19:32] Jonathan:

[00:19:32] Jonathan: Great. So you've obviously got a really great little business that

everything's organized. You've got your recurring clients. You've got your new clients coming in.

I saw a tweet that said you're booked up until January, so that's that's great. Have you thought

about getting somebody in to help you an intern or, or somebody full-time or part time..

[00:19:51] Grace: Yeah.

[00:19:52] Grace: So this is something that I go back and forth on quite a lot. And I think it's the

advice that everyone's been giving me on Twitter and in real life to expand my team. And

because so many people have told me that it's something. I've really heavily considered. But the

reason that I haven't done that as of yet, is that I feel really committed to being a company of

one, at least for the next year.

[00:20:15] Grace: I've been listening to "Company of One", the book in the last little bit. And so

it's, it's been this internal struggle because I've been a part of a team and I really like being on

my own. And the reason I haven't scaled that is because with scaling a team comes a lot more

work. With admin, with HR stuff, with just project management, making sure that the quality is


[00:20:38] Grace: And I think those things can be worth it in a lot of senses. And I see other

teams that have had a lot of success with that. My goal for my business is to have a calm

business. Is to work from home. I don't have great aspirations of having a large team and

scaling massively and doing $200,000 websites.

[00:20:57] Grace: That's just not where I see my business going. So and I think that's okay. I

think that the choice, Yeah, the choice that I've made to be a company of one, and to at least

stick with that for the next year Is is something that's really important to me. It feels like the right

choice right now.

[00:21:12] Grace: And it doesn't mean that I'm never going to add to my team, but right now I

really want to focus on the building, my craft, making sure I have solid processes in place so

that if I do want to add someone to my team, it's going to be not only a good experience for me

to have help, but it will be a good experience for them to be a part of something that's organized

and thoughtful, and that they get a lot of value out of.

[00:21:35] Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, I've I think working with an intern for the last few months

and she's just been absolutely great. But she comes from a design background that I don't and

she wanted to learn Webflow. So it's, it's been a really good fit that she's brought her design

skills and I've taught her Webflow.

[00:21:52] Jonathan: And that's worked really, really well. And I think the next person I would

want would be somebody to organize me somebody to, to fill in the Assana for me so that I

know what I'm supposed to be working on today. And somebody has to do the invoicing and

stuff. Cause that's that stuff. I just absolutely hate it, but you've got it down organized sorted it's

so yeah, in that sense you probably don't need anybody.

[00:22:14] Jonathan: Yeah. So.

[00:22:15] Grace: I have been trying to convince my partner to come work with me. So I'll,

[00:22:19] Jonathan: Oh really? Oh, right.

[00:22:20] Grace: happens. Yeah.

[00:22:21] Grace: I've been trying to convince him to come help me with some of my admin

work, but we'll, we'll see if that goes anywhere, but no, I think at some point I would love to work

with a junior designer when I'm, when I'm at that point that I'm ready for it, but I'm just not right


[00:22:33] Jonathan: You were working for an agency that you decided to become freelance.

Tips, would you give to somebody who's thinking of, of stepping out, becoming freelancer,

especially from a design perspective and moving into Webflow.

[00:22:46] Grace: Yeah.

[00:22:46] Grace: I think. It's never going to feel like the perfect time. I think I thought about

going freelance for quite a long time and just like what my next step was going to be when I was

working at a small studio. And it was something that I had obviously been thinking about for

awhile and. In my case, it was kind of pushed on by the pandemic.

[00:23:06] Grace: And so I felt a real urge to get my portfolio together and all of that. And my

work at the studio had kind of slowed down at that point in time. And as I started to do freelance

work and work at the studio, I was doing both at the same time, I realized that I quite enjoyed

freelance work and I enjoyed communicating with clients and doing the account management

and all of that kind of stuff as well.

[00:23:29] Grace: So. When it came time to make that decision kind of permanent. It was

something that I just figured. I, I need to give myself a chance to do this. I had been at at a small

studio for three years. And so I started there right when I was out of university and I had never

known another kind of like professional, creative environment.

[00:23:48] Grace: And I learned so much at that studio. It was owned by two women. They're

fantastic. They were such amazing mentors to me, and to just witness how their business

friends and their relationship and their clients, all of that was fantastic. And so having that

example set for me and just in my city, there's so many women who own their own business in a

creative capacity, whether that's agencies or other studios.

[00:24:13] Grace: I just, I see a lot of women in my city in that position. So that, that was quite

inspiring as well. And I figured, you know what? yeah,

[00:24:20] Grace: It's never going to be the right time. I know I can design a website. I know that

I can build a website. I'm feel like I'm organized. And so it was really just taking that leap and

believing in myself and thinking, you know what, I'm going to give this a year and see if I like it a

cause I could have tried it and thought, oh gosh, I hate this.

[00:24:41] Grace: I don't like being responsible for everything. But what I've found instead was

that. I really enjoy the responsibility of an entire project of that client relationship. If I make a

mistake, it's entirely on me. And I find a bit of comfort in that and that my choices and decisions

are not going to poorly reflect on anyone else.

[00:25:01] Grace: It's, it's just my own. And so not that I make a lot of mistakes, but I think that

that's that's something important when you're going into freelancing is understanding. The, the

responsibility that you have, not only to yourself, and to your business, but to your clients, and to

go into that relationship with, with authenticity and wanting the best for someone else, and really

wanting to be a partner in someone else's business.

[00:25:23] Jonathan: . Okay. So. If there's a designer listening and thinking about moving out of

an agency that they're working for and they're thinking, okay I've been using WordPress, I've

been using other, other bits and pieces. What, why is Webflow the way to go for a one person

agency design development?

[00:25:45] Grace: Yeah.

[00:25:46] Grace: Webflow changed my life. And I think it's the only reason that I'm freelancing,

frankly. I think the reason why web flow is so perfect for freelancers and small agencies or, or

one or two person groups, is that you have so much control over not only the design, because

obviously you're doing that.

[00:26:04] Grace: However you do it, Figma XD, et cetera, but you can then control that in the

development process. And so. The efficiency that's had by designing something and then also

being able to develop it. And then also being able to implement the feedback. You're not having

those. If you're using external developer, you're not having those conversations about hello, can

you please make this 16 pixel thing, 20 pixels?

[00:26:29] Grace: And then you go back and forth on a color code forever. And it just like, it's

horrible. But even with WordPress, I think it's just an efficiency standpoint. It's Webflow reflects

a lot of the way I think about design. And so that's, that's been quite helpful. Yeah.

[00:26:44] Grace: I think there is just it's it's really just the efficiency, I think is the number one.

[00:26:48] Grace: And then also design control. I like to tell clients that we can build anything

with Webflow, visually, like any kind of structure, any. Layering that we want to do. Like visually

your website can be anything that you want. And as a designer, I don't have those coding

abilities to be able to do that in WordPress or another platform.

[00:27:10] Grace: But Webflow is just a visual expression of that. And so it makes so much

more sense in my mind. And I, and I really enjoy it for that.

[00:27:18] Jonathan: Yeah, I've, I've just realized, I've just thought that, so you probably want to

get into using the blending tools as well. Won't you with, you know, getting those, you've got

those bicycle collages and stuff, and I can see that kind of collage work that you will set up for

for hero sections and and things like that.

[00:27:37] Jonathan: It's been really interesting

[00:27:37] Grace: yeah, I'm really excited about the blending modes. I haven't used them yet.

I've used the background blur on a project recently, but Yeah.

[00:27:44] Grace: I haven't used them yet, but I'm very excited about.

[00:27:46] Jonathan: and that, and that's always the problem, isn't it? That there's never

enough time to keep, to keep learning as a freelance. So you you've, you've got to, you've got to

keep producing good quality content, but then you've also got, if you're not careful after three

years, you're just still producing the same websites.

[00:28:02] Jonathan: And you're not moving on your skills. So. That's a bit of an issue as well. I

[00:28:06] Grace: I think something.

[00:28:07] Jonathan: are you going to solve that one?

[00:28:09] Grace: Yeah. I think something that's important there too, is that every project that I

take on, I really try and add something new to it. So whether it's a new layout that I've not done

before, or a new kind of button or a new kind of blending mode, or like some kind of new

treatment to something so that every project that I'm building, there's a little aspect of like, I don't

really know how to do that yet, but this will force me to learn it.

[00:28:32] Jonathan: Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's just a great way of learning. That's lovely.

Yeah. That's Webflow lets you do that. Lets you play. You can see immediately what it's gonna

look like, how it's gonna work out. And if it doesn't work well, that's fine. You can throw it away

and go back to Figma and figure out a different way of doing something.

[00:28:50] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant.

[00:28:51] Grace: exactly.

[00:28:52] Jonathan: Grace. Thank you so much for your time. It's been lovely talking to you. I

hope our listeners have something to think about while they're working in Webflow and thinking

about being freelances. If you have a question for Grace or in general for the Webflowers

podcast, go to and choose the appropriate button.

[00:29:08] Jonathan: Thank you once again, Grace . See you all next time.

[00:29:11] Grace: Thank you.

[00:29:15] Jonathan: I mean the, the, the problem with the getting your, your partner involved is

that then he'll find out how much you're earning.

[00:29:36] Grace: Oh, we are very open.

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