Meet the Guest
[00:00:06] Jonathan: Welcome to the Webflowers podcast. This week. I'm talking with Mattías Pitters, who is a freelancer at masterflowmaker.co. They make websites for Webflow enterprise partners. Mattías makes Swiss watch quality Webflow sites. But first a word of thanks
[00:00:27] Jonathan: Octopus do that's octopus dot D O.
[00:00:34] Jonathan: Create your visual site map and interactive flow. Taking full advantage of drag and drop. Dive deeper with page content blocks that make your structure simple to design handle and discuss. Your client can add content to the site map ready for you to design new pages. That's octopus dot D O .
[00:00:52] Jonathan: Hey Mattías.
[00:00:55] Jonathan: Welcome to Webflowers .
[00:00:56] Matías: Hello, Jonathan, thank you for having me here. It's a pleasure.
[00:01:00] Jonathan: Absolute pleasure. Yes. What's your favorite flower?
[00:01:02] Matías: I think the name is a poppy in English. Is that right?.
[00:01:05] Jonathan: Yep. Poppy. Yeah. Great flowers. That's my favorite too.
[00:01:08] Matías: Yeah. That's my favorite one.
[00:01:09] Jonathan: And any, any particular reason?
[00:01:11] Matías: When you asked that the first time it was kind of, oh, I don't know if I have one, but I think because it's really like simple and minimal on its shape and its form, like just like just red and not too wavy on the, on the flower itself. So that's why I like it.
[00:01:29] Jonathan: Nice. And minimalist. Yeah. Like your websites. Yeah, indeed. So I got to know you from your blog post about the architect , the composer and the publisher. But before we talk about that, can you just tell us about your journey into Webflow? Where did you start and where are you now
[00:01:44] Matías: Yeah. So I, I learned about Webflow back in 2014. At that time I was working for a New Zealand digital agency. Down there, living there. And the why I turned to Webflow was because they allowed me to do some really nice interactions without code, without relying heavily on code. And that was my first touch point with Webflow.
[00:02:12] Matías: Then I keep doing my stuff and I think maybe three, four years back, I decided to move. To do, to do all the 100% Webflow, like be really focused on Webflow and that's has been a game changer. I did some freelance work through Upwork. Then I move as a team member in Finsweet. I was there for two years and then I created my studio called El Patio where we deliver sites for Spanish startups.
[00:02:42] Matías: And also, as you mentioned, Master Flowmaker, where I position myself as a. quality freelancer for enterprise partners.
[00:02:51] Jonathan: Okay. Okay. So I mean, a couple of years at FinSweet , that's. But the thing that really caught my ear there was you mentioned Upwork and a lot of people say that you can't use Upwork. You can't use Fiverr and those kinds of places. Cause you get really poor quality jobs and things. But, but in fact it seems that a few people have used Upwork really successfully. What kinds of jobs were you getting?
[00:03:13] Matías: To be honest, I relied on Upwork , but my vision now is not relying on these platforms. That's my, what I, my perspective after trying them what sort of I there, I got like, Webflow builds and web designs. But they weren't like pretty low in, in budget looking what I'm charging right now on my, my normal rates, I think it's a good starting point.
[00:03:38] Matías: But if you carefully put on building your reputation on Upwork, if you put it like creating a solid network, the outcome in the long run, it's much better if you go just by your, by yourself. I know that it's more intimidating in the beginning to go like that yourself without any contact than Upwork , because it gives all these, like all the platform, all the context there, but in the long run in the long run, I think is much better going by yourself.
[00:04:04] Jonathan: So now you're, you're freelancing and you work as an enterprise partner. So what does that mean? What do you actually do?
[00:04:10] Matías: So my offer to enterprise partners is that I really know Webflow , I've been around for quite a few years. I understand the intricacies of the, of the platforms. I know to a really deep detail everything that revolves around Webflow, and I think that's a good selling point for enterprise partners that they want to grow.
[00:04:29] Matías: They keep, they have a really big Workloads so they can rely on someone and they know that the job is going to be done in a nice way. And I'm in, in those terms, I don't like constantly working on these type of projects. They come every now and then when they come I'm full on that project, maybe one, two weeks full on that project and deliver really quickly.
[00:04:52] Jonathan: It's usually just a new build rather than the and things. Yeah.
[00:04:57] Jonathan: Yeah.
[00:04:57] Matías: Yeah. It's like a new build.
[00:04:59] Jonathan: And you don't get involved after that once it's built you leave them to it or do they come back for new pages, new functionality.
[00:05:05] Matías: They came back. It's not like, like straight away after I'm there. It's like, we care, I leave the door open. They want to come back to me and Yeah. that's how it work. To be honest. I think Master Flowmaker, I just let. To current site stuff has been done through Master Flowmaker . There are more leads start coming now they're closing. Maybe 2 more we'll come in the next few months, but it's like too, so people have context. It's not like I'm constantly having leads and working all the time on that. It's like maybe one every two months, maybe once a month I have these kind of projects. So right now, I work on two projects through Master FlowMaker .
[00:05:49] Matías: One of one of them didn't go live and one of them it is live . And there are two more, two more about to come like during February and March.
[00:05:59] Jonathan: Okay. I do. Do you work by yourself then? You, or do you have other people working with you?
[00:06:04] Matías: Initially, this is like just me, but if the time, if the workload I have is too much, I would rely on someone who can assist me with with a Webflow, with the Webflow work.
[00:06:16] Jonathan: Okay.
[00:06:17] Matías: But.
[00:06:18] Jonathan: Well, that's interesting. Cause it takes us nicely to your, to your blog posts. The title of "The architect, the composer, and the publisher dedicated roles to become a Webflow powerhouse". And it's from your perspective, and it's a philosophical concept rather than an actual concept because there's only you.
[00:06:35] Jonathan: But. Can you just run us through where that philosophy came from, where that idea came from.
[00:06:40] Matías: Yeah, that comes from because in the end building a website, I'm talking only on the development phase when it's a big project, when you are leading with that big client or maybe not the client, but less a few, few pages over there. It's quite a lot of work to bring our web to life is, is quite a good book of work with different type of tasks, different nature on the, on those tasks. And while doing a lot of Webflow sites, I think to myself. Okay. If I had to focus on this only just thing, maybe the beginning, maybe the, the, the middle of the end of the launch. I would like to have more focus on what I'm doing on what flow and because there are so many tasks to do so many things, SEO DNS setting the design system, class name. Dealing with the client. So there are too many things that come to the project that don't let you perform or run the project as smooth as I would like.
[00:07:38] Jonathan: Right. Okay. So it's, so it's about sort of efficiency and being able to focus on one particular thing. Okay. So can you run us through what those three roles are the architect, the composer and the publisher. Tell us about the architect. What's what's their job.
[00:07:56] Matías: yeah, so as I said on the article, the architect is like the first person who has started developing on overflow. But before that he has to get a really good sense of what the designer wants to, how he see the built in terms of typographic scale spacing scale, and also how the designer understands the different UI elements that are going to be repeated across the site and how those UI elements will live with each other, will integrate with each other.
[00:08:25] Matías: So it's really nice for the architect to sit down with the designer and get to those maybe. It hasn't made those decisions yet, but speaking with the architect they can get to a really common ground and start finding some key points for the build. And then the, the architect, what he, or she would do on the, on the Webflow build is to create those basic components, style guide, component library, and build like a language for that specific build. So then the next role that will be the composer will have all the building blocks this person needs to create new pages for the project.
[00:09:01] Jonathan: Okay. So a one-page style guide maybe with a few components that are going to be used across the build. That doesn't sound like a lot of work to set up. How does that look like in scale, on, on an enterprise client is that significantly better?
[00:09:16] Matías: I think what I'm thinking more here is that having Of course, if it's a small project, one person can deal with the whole project, but when it's bigger, more presence is better.
[00:09:27] Matías: From my perspective, apart from the style guide where you have like really foundational stuff, like colors, typography forms, and a couple of other things, then you really want to have like specific pages for different types of components.
[00:09:40] Matías: Maybe small components are bigger and bigger components or maybe a page for like Primary components. And then another page for components that are built with basic components. Brad Frost is a front-end developer who brought the, the concept of atomic design, where you have atoms molecules and organisms.
[00:10:02] Matías: And that's how that's that, that idea is also revolving around when I was speaking on these, on this concept of building an, a style guide and a component library, in the early phases of the Webflow development,
[00:10:15] Jonathan: Okay. That, that makes sense. So once we've got the architecture set up what's the next role? The composer. So what, what does the composer do?.
[00:10:24] Matías: the composer what this person does is he puts everything together. It brings all those building blocks and start creating new pages also start creating all the content logic with the Webflow CMS. And the two main goals of this person is to build the pages and also I start sharing progress with the client and stakeholders.
[00:10:47] Matías: And this is an important part because when stakeholders, they bring their. The project starts to, to progress in diff not in a different way, but you have to bring it to, to bring that into the whole process of the project. So having feedback and dealing with feed back, and that, that is something to keep in mind.
[00:11:07] Matías: So may or may not be tedious to build pages and share progress and build a CMS.
[00:11:13] Jonathan: Yeah, we're building a CMS at the moment and it's a nightmare because without real content, you don't know how things are going to fit. You know, how much space do you need for headings? How much space do you need on a card for the introductory description of the, main blog post or for the research articles and stuff.
[00:11:32] Jonathan: And this, this one we're doing as an academic websites. So the titles are huge. You know, four or five lines long, and it's all got to be there because of the SEO and stuff. So that those kinds of design considerations, you know, the designers put great design together, but we're then trying to squeeze in what these real headings are and, and, and real text for things.
[00:11:57] Jonathan: And it's just, we have to keep going back and forth and trying to work out. And then, and then it's, you know, well, what fields do we really need in this CMS and they haven't thought about half of the things that they need. And so we're having to go back and say, okay, well, do we need this?
[00:12:12] Jonathan: How are we going to make this filter work? What do you know? We need to switch to, to say that this is the recommended or this is featured or, or, you know, it's just back and forth, back and forth. So yeah, that, that where you start actually putting the real content in and talking to the client, I think that's the bit I enjoy most.
[00:12:29] Jonathan: I have to say trying to, trying to get to the real understanding of what, what this thing is that we've we've we've got in front of us. Okay. Sorry. Yeah.
[00:12:38] Matías: No. I was like, I wanted to ask, like what, what was the main thing or main thing that got your attention on, on this article and why do you want it to approach this podcast with, with this article in mind?
[00:12:50] Jonathan: Oh, right. Because one of the things I'm trying to do with the Webflowers' podcast is to get people thinking in different directions. A lot of the people who start using Webflow are coming from other places that might be from WordPress, it might be from Wix or Squarespace or something like that.
[00:13:07] Jonathan: It might be that they are designers that have never built a website, and they're all starting from different positions. And I feel that Webflow flow is now growing to the extent that there are going to be, you know, actual jobs where you just go and work for a company as the Webflower , you know your job is to keep the website up and running and make the new pages for the marketing content and blog people.
[00:13:31] Jonathan: And all of that kind of thing. Enterprises is coming along. Once we get logic and Memberships, that's all gonna, make the field much bigger and I'm just really interested in how people approach Webflow, what they're doing with it. I just want to tell the stories and I want to widen people's minds and give people opportunities to think about, you know, I'll tell you what it is.
[00:13:53] Jonathan: It's cause I often see on the. Facebook group global Webflow. I often see people who are saying, ah, I just don't know how to get leads I can't find websites to build. How do you do it? What am I doing wrong? And I just think.
[00:14:05] Jonathan: There's a lot of jobs using Webflow that don't require you to go out and find the leads that you can maybe work for an agency maybe, you know, temporarily you know, one-off project where they just need some extra hands to make something happen. So it's just, it's about trying to understand what the jobs available are and those kinds of things.
[00:14:25] Jonathan: And I find this, I found this really interesting this article in terms of dividing those discrete jobs and making you think, well, what do I really want to do here? You know, and I'm not sure that we're necessarily at the point where we need. Project manager, who's just overseeing the whole thing, but certainly the composer has those kinds of elements of yeah, they're building, but they're also working with the client to bring the content in and make sure that everything fits.
[00:14:51] Jonathan: And then going back to the architect and saying, this doesn't fit, we need this. Can we change this somehow? What, what's the best way of doing it for this result? And I think that's a really interesting sort of discussion. Certainly my web builds got a lot better since I've had somebody to work with the bounce ideas off and to say, oh, try this, try that.
[00:15:11] Jonathan: Let's, let's have a look at how this works. So that's, that's where I'm coming from with the Webflowers podcast. And, and why I loved this idea of thinking about what, what Webflow is as well. Yeah. So then what's the publisher's role then?
[00:15:26] Matías: The publisher. Well, I will, I will circle back to what I wanted to say
[00:15:30] Jonathan: Oh, no, no, no. Say it now. Say now.
[00:15:33] Matías: okay. I would like hearing what you were saying. Also I opened the article. I wrote again here in another tab and circling back to the whole idea behind the article. I think I can express it now clearly is that now that the normal way of approaching a welfare project is that you have a Webflower and that Webflower does everything.
[00:15:54] Matías: that's how, that's the normal way to do that. That's how we are doing it right now, or most of us. And as, as the Webflow experts grow, they're more enterprise partners as they are bigger clients coming Webflow. I see Webflow growing and bigger, bigger projects are built in Webflow, I see these like somehow a place where to look. With this new scenario and, and it's not that it needs to be this way. These three phases is is some as how I see it. And maybe you don't need the three roles maybe you need 2 , or maybe you have only one, but you are differentiating more the phases . And it's just this look at how, how Webflow and building wealth or can evolve as bigger clients come to the platform.
[00:16:39] Jonathan: Yeah, I think, I think even if you are working on your own, I think differentiating those roles is really helpful because it, it says, okay, what's, what's the first phase of this project going to be And it might be that you're designing as well. So you might be doing the Figma designs and then you translate that into the style guide and the components.
[00:16:56] Jonathan: That's that's fantastic. And then you say, okay, but while I'm doing that, the client needs to be getting the content ready. So I know that the, this design and components is going to take me two weeks. I need the client to be writing and giving me content so that when I'm ready to start composing.
[00:17:17] Jonathan: I've got real content that I can put in there and I've got a solid framework to actually build from. And I think being able to break it down like that is, is incredibly helpful. Just to, to sort of, I mean, it's all of these tools, I suppose. I think the thing that opened my mind blew my mind was, was client first from FinSweet , which just because it's designed as a way of writing CSS classes for Specifically, it just suddenly everything worked. And I, I can't tell you how many people I've seen on the Twitter. who said . wow. I've been building websites for five years or three years with Webflow, and now I get it and now it's saving huge amounts of time. And I, I'm still kind of trying to analyze that every time I go into a project and think about client first.
[00:18:06] Jonathan: Why, why is it so good? Why does it work? And I still don't really have a good answer for that. But it, but it does, it saves huge amounts of time, even though you've got to make so many more divs , you know, cause you've got to have one for the margin, one for the padding, one for the content, and then inside the content, you're gonna have more divs to, to, to, you know, decide whether you're going to flex or grid or whatever.
[00:18:26] Jonathan: Fine. It's more work, but it's not. So I just find it really fascinating. And I think, I think that's that it's that professionalism of Webflow of saying this is a profession. Webflow for Webflowers is, is, you know, let's be professional about this. Let's do this in a, in a proper way. You know, one of the things that really annoys me so much about the Webflow university videos is you've got well, you know, we can just move this a little bit and change that. The change, the margins here a little bit. You just eyeball it. Oh, that looks about right now. Yeah, that'll do fine. Super. No. Get a design system. Think about what you're creating. Have a 12, 14, 8 column grid.
[00:19:15] Jonathan: Do some thinking some structural stuff and that, you know, the architecture stuff is so important. And I just, I find it really interesting. Yeah. I'm much more sort of theoretical about all of this than practical. I'm a, I'm actually a rubbish builder. And by my intern in inverted commerce, she's, she's doing such a great job.
[00:19:34] Jonathan: I mean, she's learned so much and I just keep throwing more stuff out to her and she just goes, oh, okay. Yeah. Just, it's just, it's just great. It's great. So, yeah. So, okay. We need to talk about the publisher.
[00:19:45] Matías: Yeah,
[00:19:46] Matías: So yeah, Thank you. Thank you for those insights. yeah.
[00:19:49] Matías: I'm also, I must like you. I am also, I like to, I like to build as well, but I also like to think of how and why we are doing things the way we're doing it.
[00:19:57] Jonathan: Yeah,
[00:19:57] Matías: And going back to the publisher that's will be the third role in, in, in these three roles.
[00:20:02] Matías: The publisher is in charge of the last steps when they are finally there, the site goes live, and there's always this thing, like, okay, we're going to live on Monday. And then you realize that you need this, the other thing on the other, the other one. So
[00:20:13] Jonathan: isn't that always the way.
[00:20:15] Matías: So some things that get that you don't really take care of until this time comes are
[00:20:19] Matías: for example, integrations are forms really getting where they need to go is the data that is getting there the right data ? Is the cookie banner working? Is all those last bits that makes the site really ready for the public. Sometimes not re not taking care of until really, really late in the process.
[00:20:35] Matías: So this person wants what. Of the jobs is to, to assure that those things are ready for the, for the, for the live site. Also this person as I mentioned, the article has a little bit of project management. Well, a little bit, I don't know whatever, but yeah, it needs to take your operator management in terms of oversee the project, the process of the project and help as much as this person can to the architect and the composer.
[00:21:03] Matías: In terms of communicating or feedback. So being the first person for that feedback and can filter that feedback. So the architect and the composer, they can remain focused on, on what they're doing. I think it's come, this comes from my more from a personal thing that I really am annoyed when I'm really like on the zone, working in Webflow or whatever.
[00:21:24] Matías: And, and suddenly I received an email or a communication, Hey, we need to update this. And. It gets me outside of where I was really enjoying myself. I think maybe that's come more from a personal perspective, but I think more people, they might feel that the same as me.
[00:21:40] Jonathan: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:21:42] Matías: and that that's also another task task of this of the, of the publisher.
[00:21:48] Matías: And then going through the article to see if there's anything I'm missing. Yeah.
[00:21:53] Matías: SEO as well is a really important thing that always is left, oh, we need O G images, open graph images all the, the favicon Yeah. to make sure all that material is ready. And upload it to the, to the right places.
[00:22:05] Matías: So that's, again, a lot of little things that you normally, you forget about those, but they need to be done. And that's why the, and the publisher knows that. And it's going to take care of that.
[00:22:16] Jonathan: Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. That's interesting you say that because one of the things I've realized is with this latest build that I'm hardly doing anything on the build. I'm talking to the client and I'm talking I mean, it it's actually the way working for an agency on this particular one. So, so I'm talking to the client and the client's client and and my dev is just doing, doing her work and she's not being interrupted all the time.
[00:22:41] Jonathan: She's not having to think about all these other things. I'm just putting stuff into a Google Doc. We're moving to ClickUp as well. That's, you know, the Webflow favorite ClickUp I'm putting stuff in there and when she's ready, she can have a look at that, but what's new. What changes need to be made without being constantly bombarded, as you say, and then if you're on your own, of course, yes.
[00:23:02] Jonathan: You've got the problem of your also chasing new clients. Trying to make sure that, you know, all of that is going on so that you've got work after this project and the next project and the next one. And I think you do need to be very careful about the way that you divide up your time and you say, okay, this is pure focus time, four hours a day of just building and focusing, and then four hours a day of all the rest of it, communicating with clients, trying to find new clients doing all the silly little jobs. Like you say, you know, the OG images and check in that, that if you're using metadata properly and all those kinds of things Because that's definitely what I found when I was building sites.
[00:23:44] Jonathan: Just, just doing everything. You just never get anything done and it just drags on and on. And you just come on, I just need to, so, . And it joins in with all of the SOPs you know, the standard operating procedures. John, John I've forgotten his name, the guy who does black illustrations from FourFive.
[00:24:06] Matías: John, John D.
[00:24:07] Jonathan: John D Saunders. That's the guy. Yeah. He's big into, into operating systems and stuff and saying, you know, these are the things that we need at this stage and this stage, and you tick everything off and everybody knows exactly what they've got to do.
[00:24:19] Jonathan: And I think. Dividing the, the Webflow built into these three three main roles is, is, is it's really clever, really well thought through as well, similar to the, you know, client first being thought through for that. So, but there are a couple of other tasks as well. I think you've mentioned a couple of other possible roles.
[00:24:40] Jonathan: One was one was animation and the other.
[00:24:43] Matías: Yeah, I named the coder,
[00:24:47] Jonathan: Oh, yeah.
[00:24:48] Matías: they'll put the person who codes. So these two are like, Yeah.
[00:24:52] Matías: Some tasks that you might need depending on the project. Like maybe you have a client that they really want to get a full on animation and they want to be like crazy animations. So these roles can be assumed by one of those.
[00:25:05] Matías: They already three, we mentioned or could be an external one or some, someone who is just focussed on that .
[00:25:12] Matías: And then we have the coder that they call there is an engineer, a software dev that has turned his eyes into Webflow. So on one side, this person understands really good Webflow and then is a master at creating code and writing real code.
[00:25:27] Matías: So, and I know that on enterprise partners, some of the requirements are crazy. People are building really precise infrastructures And collecting domains and sub domains and reverse proxies and, and connecting with their user database. And well, so that's when the caller comes in for these type of, of crazy requirements
[00:26:14] Jonathan: But yeah, I can come in and once you've got your site set up, I will create all your animations for you. Even just the, you know, I think just from the subtle things of just buttons and stuff, I think having a, an, an animator as somebody who oversees the whole of that, so that the whole site has a feel to it.
[00:26:32] Jonathan: And I literally kind of be the field because things are going to move, you know, I think, I think that would be a really interesting kind of freelance role for people just to say, this is what, this is what I do. This is what I focus on, and this is why I'm good at what I'm doing. And this is what it brings to the experience.
[00:26:48] Jonathan: And then certainly coders for web flow rather than. You know, us running around trying to find a coder who we then have to teach web flow to and explain what's going on. Somebody who knows Webflow intimately, but just focuses on the coding issues and, you know, charges proper money, but, but comes in, works for an hour.
[00:27:10] Jonathan: Does the job. Thank you very much off you go. Cause we only need you maybe for, for a small amount of time or for a day's work for, for a particular project. And I think those, those are really interesting possibilities for, for Webflow careers in the future. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:25] Matías: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:27:26] Matías: yeah.
[00:27:26] Matías: Also this article revolves around and it's set in the, in the, in the title, like dedicated roles, like Morris is specialization in Webflow. So as I said before, now, we are doing all the work one single person, but it's time that we start seeing Webflow as different areas where you can specialize, maybe commerce, maybe CMS, maybe animation, maybe the, the engineer that knows Webflow.
[00:27:52] Matías: So I see that like a really good selling point for some people that maybe they want to start working in Webflow freelancing Webflow, and they don't know how to do it. Like start looking into specializing into one skill within Webflow.
[00:28:05] Jonathan: And then, and then you're not selling yourself every time to say, oh, you know, I need to find clients to find websites to build your, your client base becomes small agencies or large agencies who need extra power for one or two days. And I can certainly see that there are people who.
[00:28:25] Jonathan: You know, on, on proper rates work, your one or two days a week is enough. And then you spend three days honing your craft and work it out, new animations or new coding or new, whatever it is so that you're at the top of your game. And I think that's a really, really interesting way of, of, of thinking about how we can move forward.
[00:28:44] Jonathan: Yeah. Brilliant.
[00:28:46] Matías: have, I have a recent , a story around that, that part of why we dug it, I'm trying to build some community around Webflow in the Spanish speaking community. And I create something like a mentor thing where people could reach out to me freely and ask their questions. The only one guy came to me, but he, he asked me like he wanted to work in Webflow as a freelancer, but he didn't know where to start.
[00:29:11] Matías: We have like a call and stuff and I said, I finally, you know, what you, what could you do reach out to this, these agencies that already puts it in as Webflow experts or Webflow enterprise reach out to them. They're always looking for, for Webflow people. And he's now working at one of them as his building code for them is he knows he knows Webflow, but he's advocated on building code.
[00:29:33] Matías: So there's room for that. There's plenty of room for that.
[00:29:36] Jonathan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Matías thank you so much for your time. It's been absolutely lovely talking to you. I hope our listeners have plenty to think about in this episode. I mean, it's yeah, just really thinking about how to break down the job. It's really interesting. If you have a question for Matías or anything you've heard go to webflowerspodcast.com and hit the appropriate button.
[00:30:00] Jonathan: Mathias. Thank you so much for your time. And I'll see you on the Twitter. Buh-bye.
[00:30:04] Matías: Thank you. Bye-bye.
[00:30:07] Matías: Yeah, I've met. I met three people that know Webflow that live in Lleida. That's that's crazy. One of them was Alex . I worked with him before he went to, to Finsweet. It's crazy. Like Lleida is like a place to find Webflowers. It's crazy.